8 ms·

Review: Touch Bar MacBook Pros give an expensive glimpse at the Mac’s future

74 points by dasmoth 10y ago

olegkikin 10y ago
Correct URL: http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch-touch-bar-macbook-pros-reviewed/ http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch...
ThePhysicist 10y ago
They also reviewed the new Lenovo Yoga 910, which seems to be a good alternative for people that don't rely on MacOS: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-yoga-910-review-an-elegant-upgrade-with-minor-compromises/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-yoga-910-revie... It even has a 4K touch-enabled display.
- gokhan 10y ago
  I have a ThinkPad 450s with touch, and I regret buying one with a touch screen. It's almost impossible to see the screen under daylight, expensive, consumes more power and I only use touch when I use the laptop in cramped places, like a plane flight. Great machine otherwise, but I couldn't find my use case for touch enabled laptops. For a while, I thought it would be useful if the screen was detachable as in the MS' Surface device, but realized that I'm also not using my iPad that much to justify the use case.
- CountSessine 10y ago
  I sort of feel like anytime someone reviews a Lenovo laptop, they have a responsibility to mention in the review whether there's any of Lenovo's EFI dickery like self-reinstalling windows drivers, expunged options, or SSL-interposing malware included. Right now the guidance seems to be that if you get a Yoga you'll get the dickery, if you get a thinkpad you'll be ok. But I'd really like to see reviewers call this out explicitly. It's also worth pointing out that the 910 can't be a MacBook replacement with that nonstandard keyboard layout.
  - WorldMaker 10y ago
    Third option is to buy a "Signature Edition" [1][2] from the Microsoft Store (or participating retail stores such as some Best Buys and Staples, I think, if you ask nicely to someone that has the right sort of a clue). Microsoft's Signature Edition program expressly forbids selling the machine with anything more than a clean Windows install. It's definitely what I've started recommending anytime anyone mentions to me to be thinking about a new Windows computer. [1] https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categoryID.69916600 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categor... [2] The Yoga, for example: https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-Yoga-910-13IKB-80VF-Signature-Edition-2-in-1-PC/productID.5072380300 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-...
    - CountSessine 10y ago
      Interesting - so they would actually use a different/clean EFI image on those? If so, then I agree - that's by far the best way to get a Windows laptop. I'll pass on the recommendation next time someone asks me. It does seem to be a bit more expensive, though; at least for Canadians. I'm seeing a $700 delta between what I'm seeing there and on the Dell store. Is that usual?
      - WorldMaker 10y ago
        That's typical PC par for the course of different stores selling roughly the same machine at different prices. Just like some of the bad old days some of the OEM's Signature Edition PCs aren't ever quite one-for-one comparable models to their website/direct sales (or even to some of the other stores they sell in). It has long been the case that manufacturers have slightly different model numbers and subtly different configurations for every single retail channel they interact with so you can't always tell if you are getting a good deal or not. There also is a case that some of the manufacturers do get enough advertising kickbacks from the junk they bundle with the computer that you do see some of that "savings" passed back to you as a consumer with the premium added to the Signature Editions. So far as I'm aware (merely as a consumer) Signature Edition does seem to require a clean EFI image as well. I've seen reports that things like Lenovo's EFI problems are things the Signature Edition team screens for (for instance this PC Mag article specifically mentioning Superfish [1]), but I can't tell you how thoroughly they check, just that I feel sure they try. [1] http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-signature-edition-laptops-deliver-the-clean-pc-experience-you-really-want.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-signature-...
Selfcommit 10y ago
The comment "15-inch Pros have enough thermal headroom to fit in quad-core Skylake processors..." is interesting. While the current offerings don't meet expectations set for the MBP... maybe this is a long play by Apple? How quickly will the disappointment be forgotten when 32 gig / quadcore / nvidia GPU's are released?
- ssijak 10y ago
  it have quadcores currently. 32gig will come with kaby lake refresh. nvidia, maybe, maybe not, certainly welcome.
  - threeseed 10y ago
    According to Macrumors, there is a compatibility issue which means Nvidia might be out of the picture for a while. Nvidia is only capable of driving dual 5K displays with the Polaris GPUs with DisplayPort 1.3 which is not supported with Thunderbolt 3. http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/14/late-2016-mbp-amd-gpus-support-dual-5k-displays/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/14/late-2016-mbp-amd-gpus-s...
    - registered99 10y ago
      there's the possibility of GPUs in the display, though
      - akvadrako 10y ago
        That makes a lot of sense, but I haven't seen any hints that it's coming soon. Keep in mind, you really need an upgradable GPU for that, since these $1000 5K displays have a long life cycle. And it would probably require rewrites of high-performance apps and games to be something closer to client/server setups to manage communication between the CPU/memory and GPU. There is really no difference for anything but the most demanding applications though.
        10y ago
davidf18 10y ago
Many of us just want the 15" display preferring longer battery life and smaller size/weight to using a discrete GPU. I am at a university and the 15" rMBPs are popular with students as well as researchers. I currently have the 2015 rMBP 15". Thus, it is disappointing that there is not replacement for the version that uses only the integrated graphics. Also, the Intel 530 graphics of the 2016 rMBP 15" appears to be lower performing than the 2015 rMBP 15" integrated graphics. While there were benchmarks for the battery life of the iGPU, there were no performance benchmarks comparing the rMBP 15" 2016 iGPU vs. the 2015 iGPU. I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the 2015 rMBP 15" iGPU. EDIT: Source for Iris Pro 5200 vs. HD 530: 5200 about 20% faster than 530 for same resolution. http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-HD-5200-V2-Mobile-12-GHz-vs-Intel-HD-530-Desktop-Skylake/m8190vsm33102 http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-HD-5200-...
- r00fus 10y ago
  Do you have a cite on the 20% slower?
  - davidf18 10y ago
    Added the source to my post.
- simonsarris 10y ago
  > I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the 2015 rMBP 15" iGPU. This is probably due to the increased screen resolution. If you make the resolutions of both models the same I suspect it will be comparable or faster in benchmarks. (2015 MBP default resolution of 2880×1800 vs new, 3360×2100) Something similar happened with iPads came out with retina displays. Pushing lots of pixels consumes more performance.
  - merb 10y ago
    a little bit akward that they raised the resolution. 2880x1800 was just fine, having 3360x2100 also means that you again needs to tweak everything if you might use linux.
rch 10y ago
> I use 13-inch laptops almost exclusively these days Stopped reading the review at this point.
- threeseed 10y ago
  Why ? Most office workers for example only untether their laptops when going to meetings. They are every bit as "power user" as those who use a 15 inch laptop.
  - nimblegorilla 10y ago
    Users that rarely use their laptop on the go do not have the same concerns as me.
  - rch 10y ago
    Interesting. I guess my workflow and concerns are a little different since I often work without benefit of an attached monitor, and my meetings start by logging into whatever computer is in the conference room. If I'm at my desk, I'm working on hardware that's well beyond what I'd expect from any laptop. The 'thinner, lighter' perspective just doesn't fit well with my particular requirements.
- n1000 10y ago
  I found this review to be written with half the enthusiasm as his 13" model review. Maybe this is the reason :)
santaclaus 10y ago
Does Xcode come with touch bar support? Custom debugging controls could be cool.
- paws 10y ago
  Yes, 8.1 and later[1] [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/DeveloperTools/RN-Xcode/Introduction.html https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/Dev...
cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
People bitch about dongles but if you think about it, who would make this progress if Apple doesn't? Apple is probably the only consumer tech hardware company out there that can do this. I almost think it's their responsibility to push the boundary. People make fun of the term "Courage" and I thought that was funny at first too. But the more I think about it the more I get what he's trying to say. Right now NO ONE other than Apple has the "courage" to make this decision. Do you think Dell would do it? Samsung? Only Apple has enough influence in the industry to be able to do something like this and NOT lose all their users. If Samsung got rid of all their ports, people would probably ditch them and buy a Lenovo or something. So Samsung cant' do it. Coming back to Apple, I'm an apple user and I have to buy it because it's just much better for me as a developer. And honestly speaking, I don't care about all these dongles arguments and "it's not for a pro" arguments. I'm not buying a device whose primary purpose is to stick in my USB cable. And pros don't complain about their tools. Anyway Apple knows that if nobody makes this decision, laptops will just stay as some stagnant genre of devices that are only able to do things that people used to do in the 2000s. In other words, if Apple didn't do this, I think the entire laptop category will just stagnate and be cannibalized by other platforms. See TV as an example.
- jacquesc 10y ago
  PC Laptop world is actually really competitive. Check out Razer, Alienware, Yoga line, and Microsoft Surface. They're innovating like crazy. Touch screens, OLED displays, external GPUs, different form factors, VR capable performance, etc. And many of those laptops integrated Thunderbolt 3 a while ago. Regrettably, Apple has us all locked into their ecosystem via software so it feels like they are the only ones innovating.
  - cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
    Yeah I agree that they are competitive, that's why they can add stuff but can't remove. Adding is easy. Adding is always good, which means it's easy to make that decision, but removing requires "courage" (haha I just can't help it although I agree with the term) For example, it would be an idiotic move for Microsoft Surface to remove USB cables and headphone jacks because as far as hardware is concerned they're an underdog.
digi_owl 10y ago
Classic Cunningham...
raarts 10y ago
Weird that I can't find a review anywhere that compares the battery life of the 2013 macbook air with the new $1499 macbook pro. Anyone know of one?
- spronkey 10y ago
  The 2013 Air has a the same size battery as the non-touchbar model, a lower power GPU, the same TDP CPU. The display is possibly more efficient on the new pro compared to the older display, but it's got many more pixels, so, I'd give the nod to the Air, but they ought to be close.

74 points by dasmoth 10y ago

Correct URL: http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch-touch-bar-macbook-pros-reviewed/ http://arstechnica.com/video/2016/11/the-2016-13-and-15-inch...

ThePhysicist 10y ago

They also reviewed the new Lenovo Yoga 910, which seems to be a good alternative for people that don't rely on MacOS: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-yoga-910-review-an-elegant-upgrade-with-minor-compromises/ http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/11/lenovo-yoga-910-revie... It even has a 4K touch-enabled display.

gokhan 10y ago
I have a ThinkPad 450s with touch, and I regret buying one with a touch screen. It's almost impossible to see the screen under daylight, expensive, consumes more power and I only use touch when I use the laptop in cramped places, like a plane flight. Great machine otherwise, but I couldn't find my use case for touch enabled laptops. For a while, I thought it would be useful if the screen was detachable as in the MS' Surface device, but realized that I'm also not using my iPad that much to justify the use case.
CountSessine 10y ago
I sort of feel like anytime someone reviews a Lenovo laptop, they have a responsibility to mention in the review whether there's any of Lenovo's EFI dickery like self-reinstalling windows drivers, expunged options, or SSL-interposing malware included. Right now the guidance seems to be that if you get a Yoga you'll get the dickery, if you get a thinkpad you'll be ok. But I'd really like to see reviewers call this out explicitly. It's also worth pointing out that the 910 can't be a MacBook replacement with that nonstandard keyboard layout.
- WorldMaker 10y ago
  Third option is to buy a "Signature Edition" [1][2] from the Microsoft Store (or participating retail stores such as some Best Buys and Staples, I think, if you ask nicely to someone that has the right sort of a clue). Microsoft's Signature Edition program expressly forbids selling the machine with anything more than a clean Windows install. It's definitely what I've started recommending anytime anyone mentions to me to be thinking about a new Windows computer. [1] https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categoryID.69916600 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/cat/categor... [2] The Yoga, for example: https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-Yoga-910-13IKB-80VF-Signature-Edition-2-in-1-PC/productID.5072380300 https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Lenovo-...
  - CountSessine 10y ago
    Interesting - so they would actually use a different/clean EFI image on those? If so, then I agree - that's by far the best way to get a Windows laptop. I'll pass on the recommendation next time someone asks me. It does seem to be a bit more expensive, though; at least for Canadians. I'm seeing a $700 delta between what I'm seeing there and on the Dell store. Is that usual?
    - WorldMaker 10y ago
      That's typical PC par for the course of different stores selling roughly the same machine at different prices. Just like some of the bad old days some of the OEM's Signature Edition PCs aren't ever quite one-for-one comparable models to their website/direct sales (or even to some of the other stores they sell in). It has long been the case that manufacturers have slightly different model numbers and subtly different configurations for every single retail channel they interact with so you can't always tell if you are getting a good deal or not. There also is a case that some of the manufacturers do get enough advertising kickbacks from the junk they bundle with the computer that you do see some of that "savings" passed back to you as a consumer with the premium added to the Signature Editions. So far as I'm aware (merely as a consumer) Signature Edition does seem to require a clean EFI image as well. I've seen reports that things like Lenovo's EFI problems are things the Signature Edition team screens for (for instance this PC Mag article specifically mentioning Superfish [1]), but I can't tell you how thoroughly they check, just that I feel sure they try. [1] http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-signature-edition-laptops-deliver-the-clean-pc-experience-you-really-want.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2887213/microsofts-signature-...

Selfcommit 10y ago

The comment "15-inch Pros have enough thermal headroom to fit in quad-core Skylake processors..." is interesting. While the current offerings don't meet expectations set for the MBP... maybe this is a long play by Apple? How quickly will the disappointment be forgotten when 32 gig / quadcore / nvidia GPU's are released?

ssijak 10y ago
it have quadcores currently. 32gig will come with kaby lake refresh. nvidia, maybe, maybe not, certainly welcome.
- threeseed 10y ago
  According to Macrumors, there is a compatibility issue which means Nvidia might be out of the picture for a while. Nvidia is only capable of driving dual 5K displays with the Polaris GPUs with DisplayPort 1.3 which is not supported with Thunderbolt 3. http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/14/late-2016-mbp-amd-gpus-support-dual-5k-displays/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/14/late-2016-mbp-amd-gpus-s...
  - registered99 10y ago
    there's the possibility of GPUs in the display, though
    - akvadrako 10y ago
      That makes a lot of sense, but I haven't seen any hints that it's coming soon. Keep in mind, you really need an upgradable GPU for that, since these $1000 5K displays have a long life cycle. And it would probably require rewrites of high-performance apps and games to be something closer to client/server setups to manage communication between the CPU/memory and GPU. There is really no difference for anything but the most demanding applications though.
      - 10y ago

davidf18 10y ago

Many of us just want the 15" display preferring longer battery life and smaller size/weight to using a discrete GPU. I am at a university and the 15" rMBPs are popular with students as well as researchers. I currently have the 2015 rMBP 15". Thus, it is disappointing that there is not replacement for the version that uses only the integrated graphics. Also, the Intel 530 graphics of the 2016 rMBP 15" appears to be lower performing than the 2015 rMBP 15" integrated graphics. While there were benchmarks for the battery life of the iGPU, there were no performance benchmarks comparing the rMBP 15" 2016 iGPU vs. the 2015 iGPU. I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the 2015 rMBP 15" iGPU. EDIT: Source for Iris Pro 5200 vs. HD 530: 5200 about 20% faster than 530 for same resolution. http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-HD-5200-V2-Mobile-12-GHz-vs-Intel-HD-530-Desktop-Skylake/m8190vsm33102 http://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Iris-Pro-HD-5200-...

r00fus 10y ago
Do you have a cite on the 20% slower?
- davidf18 10y ago
  Added the source to my post.
simonsarris 10y ago
> I've looked online and it appears that the 530 is about 20% slower than the 2015 rMBP 15" iGPU. This is probably due to the increased screen resolution. If you make the resolutions of both models the same I suspect it will be comparable or faster in benchmarks. (2015 MBP default resolution of 2880×1800 vs new, 3360×2100) Something similar happened with iPads came out with retina displays. Pushing lots of pixels consumes more performance.
- merb 10y ago
  a little bit akward that they raised the resolution. 2880x1800 was just fine, having 3360x2100 also means that you again needs to tweak everything if you might use linux.

rch 10y ago

> I use 13-inch laptops almost exclusively these days Stopped reading the review at this point.

threeseed 10y ago
Why ? Most office workers for example only untether their laptops when going to meetings. They are every bit as "power user" as those who use a 15 inch laptop.
- nimblegorilla 10y ago
  Users that rarely use their laptop on the go do not have the same concerns as me.
- rch 10y ago
  Interesting. I guess my workflow and concerns are a little different since I often work without benefit of an attached monitor, and my meetings start by logging into whatever computer is in the conference room. If I'm at my desk, I'm working on hardware that's well beyond what I'd expect from any laptop. The 'thinner, lighter' perspective just doesn't fit well with my particular requirements.
n1000 10y ago
I found this review to be written with half the enthusiasm as his 13" model review. Maybe this is the reason :)

santaclaus 10y ago

Does Xcode come with touch bar support? Custom debugging controls could be cool.

paws 10y ago
Yes, 8.1 and later[1] [1] https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/DeveloperTools/RN-Xcode/Introduction.html https://developer.apple.com/library/content/releasenotes/Dev...

cocktailpeanuts 10y ago

People bitch about dongles but if you think about it, who would make this progress if Apple doesn't? Apple is probably the only consumer tech hardware company out there that can do this. I almost think it's their responsibility to push the boundary. People make fun of the term "Courage" and I thought that was funny at first too. But the more I think about it the more I get what he's trying to say. Right now NO ONE other than Apple has the "courage" to make this decision. Do you think Dell would do it? Samsung? Only Apple has enough influence in the industry to be able to do something like this and NOT lose all their users. If Samsung got rid of all their ports, people would probably ditch them and buy a Lenovo or something. So Samsung cant' do it. Coming back to Apple, I'm an apple user and I have to buy it because it's just much better for me as a developer. And honestly speaking, I don't care about all these dongles arguments and "it's not for a pro" arguments. I'm not buying a device whose primary purpose is to stick in my USB cable. And pros don't complain about their tools. Anyway Apple knows that if nobody makes this decision, laptops will just stay as some stagnant genre of devices that are only able to do things that people used to do in the 2000s. In other words, if Apple didn't do this, I think the entire laptop category will just stagnate and be cannibalized by other platforms. See TV as an example.

jacquesc 10y ago
PC Laptop world is actually really competitive. Check out Razer, Alienware, Yoga line, and Microsoft Surface. They're innovating like crazy. Touch screens, OLED displays, external GPUs, different form factors, VR capable performance, etc. And many of those laptops integrated Thunderbolt 3 a while ago. Regrettably, Apple has us all locked into their ecosystem via software so it feels like they are the only ones innovating.
- cocktailpeanuts 10y ago
  Yeah I agree that they are competitive, that's why they can add stuff but can't remove. Adding is easy. Adding is always good, which means it's easy to make that decision, but removing requires "courage" (haha I just can't help it although I agree with the term) For example, it would be an idiotic move for Microsoft Surface to remove USB cables and headphone jacks because as far as hardware is concerned they're an underdog.

digi_owl 10y ago

Classic Cunningham...

raarts 10y ago

Weird that I can't find a review anywhere that compares the battery life of the 2013 macbook air with the new $1499 macbook pro. Anyone know of one?

spronkey 10y ago
The 2013 Air has a the same size battery as the non-touchbar model, a lower power GPU, the same TDP CPU. The display is possibly more efficient on the new pro compared to the older display, but it's got many more pixels, so, I'd give the nod to the Air, but they ought to be close.