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Nowhere did willhslade say that it does. He said that comparing Knuth's style to Torvalds's isn't very enlightening because they are fundamentally engaged in di

by dpark 10y ago

Nowhere did willhslade say that it does. He said that comparing Knuth's style to Torvalds's isn't very enlightening because they are fundamentally engaged in different activities. Comparing Knuth to Torvalds and saying "look, you don't have to be an asshole to be a great leader" is like comparing Usain Bolt to Dean Karnazes and saying "look, you don't have to be really muscular to be a great sprinter." The comparison is pointless because Karnazes isn't a sprinter just like Knuth isn't leading major software efforts. Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison.

pmelendez 10y ago
>The comparison is pointless because Karnazes isn't a sprinter just like Knuth isn't leading major software efforts. That makes sense, except that OP said "You don't have to be a jerk to get ahead in life", he didn't mentioned being a leader. The followed commenters brought the leadership point into attention and then subtly implied that there is more correlation between being a jerk and a leader.
- dpark 10y ago
  I was replying to cesarbs, who literally said "Being a leader does not justify being an asshole." Edit: And yes, the conversation pivoted to being a leader because that is a critical difference between Knuth and Torvalds which seems very relevant to this sort of comparison.
sedachv 10y ago
> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. So pretty much everyone except for Torvalds and de Raadt? Those guys are the exception and not the rule.
- merb 10y ago
  define large-scale? used in large-scale or has a large-scale developer base? for used in large-scale I know some, but they don't have a large-scale developer base.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  Bezos, Ellison. I agree, still the exception, but I feel like it's extremely unfair to say "everyone except" and forget the devil himself :)
  - sedachv 10y ago
    From what I have read Bezos always had a minimal role in the technical management of Amazon other than yelling at people to work harder and micro-managing how amazon.com looked. I have not read anything about Ellison but cannot imagine he has been involved in managing Oracle the database vs Oracle the corporation since the late 1980s.
  - vacri 10y ago
    Not to mention Jobs. Ballmer. Some would say Eich (on external politics).
    - sedachv 10y ago
      So more business managers? Why should the behavior of dysfunctional business managers be acceptable behavior in hobbyist free software projects?
rodgerd 10y ago
> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. Larry Wall. Tom Lane. Off the top of my head.
- dpark 10y ago
  To be clear, I'm also not claiming that a leader has to be an asshole. I agree with willhslade that Knuth is not a meaningful counterpoint to Torvalds, though.

by dpark 10y ago

pmelendez 10y ago

>The comparison is pointless because Karnazes isn't a sprinter just like Knuth isn't leading major software efforts. That makes sense, except that OP said "You don't have to be a jerk to get ahead in life", he didn't mentioned being a leader. The followed commenters brought the leadership point into attention and then subtly implied that there is more correlation between being a jerk and a leader.

dpark 10y ago
I was replying to cesarbs, who literally said "Being a leader does not justify being an asshole." Edit: And yes, the conversation pivoted to being a leader because that is a critical difference between Knuth and Torvalds which seems very relevant to this sort of comparison.

sedachv 10y ago

> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. So pretty much everyone except for Torvalds and de Raadt? Those guys are the exception and not the rule.

merb 10y ago
define large-scale? used in large-scale or has a large-scale developer base? for used in large-scale I know some, but they don't have a large-scale developer base.
scrollaway 10y ago
Bezos, Ellison. I agree, still the exception, but I feel like it's extremely unfair to say "everyone except" and forget the devil himself :)
- sedachv 10y ago
  From what I have read Bezos always had a minimal role in the technical management of Amazon other than yelling at people to work harder and micro-managing how amazon.com looked. I have not read anything about Ellison but cannot imagine he has been involved in managing Oracle the database vs Oracle the corporation since the late 1980s.
- vacri 10y ago
  Not to mention Jobs. Ballmer. Some would say Eich (on external politics).
  - sedachv 10y ago
    So more business managers? Why should the behavior of dysfunctional business managers be acceptable behavior in hobbyist free software projects?

rodgerd 10y ago

> Find a successful leader of a large-scale piece of software who doesn't have a reputation for being an asshole and use them for the comparison. Larry Wall. Tom Lane. Off the top of my head.

dpark 10y ago
To be clear, I'm also not claiming that a leader has to be an asshole. I agree with willhslade that Knuth is not a meaningful counterpoint to Torvalds, though.