5 ms·

"If everyone knows that what is happening is wrong, then why doesn't anyone fix it?" This question is hogging me for the past couple of years or so. I find it

by rick_2047 17y ago

"If everyone knows that what is happening is wrong, then why doesn't anyone fix it?" This question is hogging me for the past couple of years or so. I find it impossible to answer.

pmichaud 17y ago
You just need to step back and look at the incentives. The vast majority of college students are there to be "certified impressive", and socialized to cooperate in the workforce, NOT to learn. If learning were the goal, the system would look radically different. As it stands, students get their certification, employers get their pre-socialized workforce. The situation will change when the basic proficiency level of the average student makes them untenable to hire. Unfortunately for those of us who would like to see the system improve, the required level seems to be dropping as technology allows corporations to automate a lot of tasks, and make other tasks nearly fool proof (think customer service flow charts). For those roles that require actual acumen and responsibility, training for those will continue as it has since time immemorial: passed directly from family member or family friend to eager young adults, which is a primary force creating and maintaining class boundaries.
- epochwolf 17y ago
  The one problem is the professors think that college is for learning. I'm one of those in college solely to get "certified impressive".
  - robryan 17y ago
    Well they think that because that is meant to be their role, it's not their fault that industry at some point imposed a lot of artificial degree barriers so people that don't want to be at university need to be there to stand a chance. I think in software dev the trend is going the right way, you see a lot of degree helpful but not required. There is a lot of benefit in the degree but there are many paths to a goal and they should be objectively compared in hiring.
  - snth 17y ago
    In my experience most professors think that college is for funding their research.
    - alexgartrell 17y ago
      Professors don't collect money from undergrads to pay for research; they collect grants to fund themselves, their students, their labs, etc. They spend a tremendous amount of time and energy writing these grant proposals and submitting them to all the right people. The reality is that most Research Professors (not all professors are on the tenure track, after all) are more motivated by research than by education, because they have to be. Nearly everything is stapled to #/quality of publications. If you don't like that, you'll have to revamp the whole system. Besides, as much as we glorify it, teaching students sucks. Students do the bare minimum it takes to get the grades they want, and exhibit next to no real interest in the topics at hand. Add on to that that the professor has likely been researching an offshoot of this topic for years or even decades and you don't exactly have any motivation for the professor to put himself out there for the student. If you want a professor to really care about you and make an active investment in you, you have to engage with him or her somewhere outside of class. The best way to do this is through research. If you want to put in your minimum to get your diploma, you're going to get that professor's minimum as well.
      - rwl 16y ago
        "Besides, as much as we glorify it, teaching students sucks. Students do the bare minimum it takes to get the grades they want, and exhibit next to no real interest in the topics at hand." Teaching students sucks when students aren't engaged. It sucks to teach students who don't actually want to learn something; they just want to fulfill a requirement, or put the class on their CV. You're exactly right to say that "If you want to put in your minimum to get your diploma, you're going to get that professor's minimum as well." That is, when teaching sucks, it sucks because students are participating in the exact same behavior that colleges are: bolstering their perceived reputations. Students do this because they have been taught (by colleges and the schools that prepare them for college) that reputation is what counts. So, if you fix the reputation-seeking system, student and professorial engagement in learning should increase, too.
- elblanco 16y ago
  > The situation will change when the basic proficiency level of the average student makes them untenable to hire. You can kind of see that now. It used to be that people with only High School diplomas were very hire-able and people with B.A/S.s were the rarity. Now, in most professional environments a B.A/S. is a minimum requirement and M.A/S.s are preferred. Before too long M.A/S.s will be required for entry level jobs and either a second degree or a PhD will be the preferred.
dantheman 17y ago
Vested interests that have control. By removing voluntary interaction and replacing it with decree by fiat old incentive structures are calcified. To fix this situation: 1. Remove all government funding 2. Remove all guarantees on student aid Then students would be forced to do some economic analysis on what they think is worth it. They would care significantly more about he value proposition. By removing guarantees on student aid institutions would have a vested interest in creating the highest quality graduates or else it would become difficult for future students to receive loans.
- j_baker 17y ago
  I don't think this is an issue that's solvable by changes in funding. If someone in our society wants a college education, it should be provided for them. I think the bigger issue is that people feel they have to go to college to get anywhere. The solution is for society to quit placing such a high value on am arbitrary piece of paper.
  - jrwoodruff 17y ago
    Absolutely. Or at minimum place equal value on other types of training such as apprenticeships or vocational programs, where appropriate. I've always thought that it's a shame these practical types of education are looked down on in the U.S. There's no reason many degrees - lets say graphic design, or journalism, for example - couldn't be taught equally well through these options.
  - eru 17y ago
    > If someone in our society wants a college education, it should be provided for them. Why? If you want to give education away, start with free kindergartens. The guys who are ready to go to university have already have already made it into the middle class.
    - j_baker 17y ago
      Really? I must have missed my automatic promotion to middle classhood upon graduating high school because I was pretty broke when I went to University.

"If everyone knows that what is happening is wrong, then why doesn't anyone fix it?" This question is hogging me for the past couple of years or so. I find it impossible to answer.

pmichaud 17y ago

You just need to step back and look at the incentives. The vast majority of college students are there to be "certified impressive", and socialized to cooperate in the workforce, NOT to learn. If learning were the goal, the system would look radically different. As it stands, students get their certification, employers get their pre-socialized workforce. The situation will change when the basic proficiency level of the average student makes them untenable to hire. Unfortunately for those of us who would like to see the system improve, the required level seems to be dropping as technology allows corporations to automate a lot of tasks, and make other tasks nearly fool proof (think customer service flow charts). For those roles that require actual acumen and responsibility, training for those will continue as it has since time immemorial: passed directly from family member or family friend to eager young adults, which is a primary force creating and maintaining class boundaries.

epochwolf 17y ago
The one problem is the professors think that college is for learning. I'm one of those in college solely to get "certified impressive".
- robryan 17y ago
  Well they think that because that is meant to be their role, it's not their fault that industry at some point imposed a lot of artificial degree barriers so people that don't want to be at university need to be there to stand a chance. I think in software dev the trend is going the right way, you see a lot of degree helpful but not required. There is a lot of benefit in the degree but there are many paths to a goal and they should be objectively compared in hiring.
- snth 17y ago
  In my experience most professors think that college is for funding their research.
  - alexgartrell 17y ago
    Professors don't collect money from undergrads to pay for research; they collect grants to fund themselves, their students, their labs, etc. They spend a tremendous amount of time and energy writing these grant proposals and submitting them to all the right people. The reality is that most Research Professors (not all professors are on the tenure track, after all) are more motivated by research than by education, because they have to be. Nearly everything is stapled to #/quality of publications. If you don't like that, you'll have to revamp the whole system. Besides, as much as we glorify it, teaching students sucks. Students do the bare minimum it takes to get the grades they want, and exhibit next to no real interest in the topics at hand. Add on to that that the professor has likely been researching an offshoot of this topic for years or even decades and you don't exactly have any motivation for the professor to put himself out there for the student. If you want a professor to really care about you and make an active investment in you, you have to engage with him or her somewhere outside of class. The best way to do this is through research. If you want to put in your minimum to get your diploma, you're going to get that professor's minimum as well.
    - rwl 16y ago
      "Besides, as much as we glorify it, teaching students sucks. Students do the bare minimum it takes to get the grades they want, and exhibit next to no real interest in the topics at hand." Teaching students sucks when students aren't engaged. It sucks to teach students who don't actually want to learn something; they just want to fulfill a requirement, or put the class on their CV. You're exactly right to say that "If you want to put in your minimum to get your diploma, you're going to get that professor's minimum as well." That is, when teaching sucks, it sucks because students are participating in the exact same behavior that colleges are: bolstering their perceived reputations. Students do this because they have been taught (by colleges and the schools that prepare them for college) that reputation is what counts. So, if you fix the reputation-seeking system, student and professorial engagement in learning should increase, too.
elblanco 16y ago
> The situation will change when the basic proficiency level of the average student makes them untenable to hire. You can kind of see that now. It used to be that people with only High School diplomas were very hire-able and people with B.A/S.s were the rarity. Now, in most professional environments a B.A/S. is a minimum requirement and M.A/S.s are preferred. Before too long M.A/S.s will be required for entry level jobs and either a second degree or a PhD will be the preferred.

dantheman 17y ago

Vested interests that have control. By removing voluntary interaction and replacing it with decree by fiat old incentive structures are calcified. To fix this situation: 1. Remove all government funding 2. Remove all guarantees on student aid Then students would be forced to do some economic analysis on what they think is worth it. They would care significantly more about he value proposition. By removing guarantees on student aid institutions would have a vested interest in creating the highest quality graduates or else it would become difficult for future students to receive loans.

j_baker 17y ago
I don't think this is an issue that's solvable by changes in funding. If someone in our society wants a college education, it should be provided for them. I think the bigger issue is that people feel they have to go to college to get anywhere. The solution is for society to quit placing such a high value on am arbitrary piece of paper.
- jrwoodruff 17y ago
  Absolutely. Or at minimum place equal value on other types of training such as apprenticeships or vocational programs, where appropriate. I've always thought that it's a shame these practical types of education are looked down on in the U.S. There's no reason many degrees - lets say graphic design, or journalism, for example - couldn't be taught equally well through these options.
- eru 17y ago
  > If someone in our society wants a college education, it should be provided for them. Why? If you want to give education away, start with free kindergartens. The guys who are ready to go to university have already have already made it into the middle class.
  - j_baker 17y ago
    Really? I must have missed my automatic promotion to middle classhood upon graduating high school because I was pretty broke when I went to University.