14 ms·

China, Japan, Russia, and South Korea Plan Renewable Energy Super Grid

112 points by binalpatel 10y ago

binalpatel 10y ago
The article's about two months old - but I thought it was a fascinating idea. I know that one of the challenges of harnessing renewable energy is battery technology not being up to he task (yet), but I'd never thought about creating a grid large enough that demand is smoothed out over a large region.
- reacweb 10y ago
  Could it be feasible at the scale of the planet ?
  - binalpatel 10y ago
    I'm not an expert - so I can't say for sure. The article does mention that Japan apparently runs two different "grids" that are so different, that it's close to impossible to connect the two. I'd imagine that issues like that would compound as more and more countries are added?
    - msl 10y ago
      Not every two countries use mutually incompatible mains systems; see for example [0] to see a real time map showing an electricity market with multiple nations as participants. Note also, that your AC grids do not need to be compatible to transfer power between them, and even if they are, you might want to convert to and from DC in between - see [1] for examples of this. I have no idea why it is impossible for the Japanese connect their grids, but I am guessing the problem is not one of technology. Edit: Reading the Wikipedia article on the subject [2] it seems that the incompatible Japanese grids are indeed interconnected to a degree. It also seems that the electricity market in Japan being currently liberalized, which I take to mean that it has traditionally not been particularily open for competition. That might explain why nobody has been in a hurry to improve the system as a whole. [0] http://www.statnett.no/Kraftsystemet/ http://www.statnett.no/Kraftsystemet/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Japan
    - reacweb 10y ago
      It seems 50Hz and 60 Hz are the only relevant standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Standardization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Standardizat...
    - rurounijones 10y ago
      Japan has two grids that run at different frequencies. (50hz and 60hz) They are actually connected but can only transfer about 2000MW from one to the other via the one connection point. They have plans to add more interconnects starting in 2020.
  - peller 10y ago
    I suspect the transmission losses would be too great for it to make too much sense.[1] But even if that weren't a problem, well, politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Lo...
    - treehau5 10y ago
      Not just politics, security as well. One bad actor could wipe out the power grid for most of the world's superpowers.
      - binalpatel 10y ago
        How would that hypothetical work out? I know that the grids - as they stand right now - must balance generation and consumption. Would a large outage (or large spike) in any given part of the interconnected grids be able to take out all of it?
        msl 10y ago
        The Wikipedia article on Cascading failure [0] lists a few examples of this kind of a large scale grid failure. You start by taking one (or some) power plants down, thus overloading others trying to reblance the system, and possibly failing too. Such a chain reaction can, over multiple generations, take a great many power plants down. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure
    - perfunctory 10y ago
      from the article: Nine regional interconnected grids are already functioning within China, so the technical feasibility of transmitting electricity across long distances at high voltages has already been proven.
      - peller 10y ago
        Eh yea, but there's an economic feasibility limit too. From the Wiki article I linked: "As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for direct-current transmission was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For alternating current it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi), though all transmission lines in use today are substantially shorter than this." [It's unclear when "today" means, or at what voltage these lines were running. But the 1000KV range this renewable grid is running is pretty typical, and, is in the ballpark of these quoted distances.] For reference, the circumference of earth is about 40,000km (as parent was pondering). The thing is, transformers and wire haven't exactly changed much since 1980. So until we can figure out room-temperature super conductivity, or a more efficient way of massively scaling up/down voltages than transformers, I'm inclined to believe the situation hasn't changed much since then. Then again, I'd love to be proved wrong.
  - Retric 10y ago
    You can link US / Russia with a 50 mile under sea electric cable. Which would join, Afro-Eurasia with the Americas fairly easily. However, local storage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit...) is going to be cheaper than shifting solar power around the globe. Further, while you can connect any two grids (worst case generator / alternator pair) that does not make it cost effective.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      The Bering Strait? Easily? There's all sorts of things that are easy if you focus on an easy part that doesn't accomplish anything.
      - Retric 10y ago
        You may have missed my point. Under sea cables that distance are proven tech. EX: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_to_England_Interconnector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_to_England_Interco... a 40 MW 65 mile under sea cable.) However, my point was geography was not the problem.
        maxerickson 10y ago
        I was thinking more about the thousands of miles separating the straight from any large groups of people (on both sides). Yes, crossing the straight is nicely feasible. Putting power to that crossing is not so nicely feasible.
        Retric 10y ago
        Sure, sending 100+GW of power though there would be ridiculously expensive and a huge waste of resources. However, there are some people in the area so sending "nominal" amounts of power would not be an issue. I do wonder how connected these areas are to a wider power grid. It's probably cheaper to just have local power generation than run power cables to these remote areas I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_Alaska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_Alaska has 150 people. ED: Anyway, it's an economic not a technical problem.
  - carapace 10y ago
    Bucky Fuller promoted the idea of a World Grid. One of his foundational principals is that as the system you design for gets larger you can engineer greater efficiencies. I think a "mesh network" for power would be better than a global "client/server" format, but economics, politics, etc...
    - kefka 10y ago
      Solar proves the opposite, as it is hyper-local. Why bother with remote power generation and such, when I can hang stuff on my roof and get free energy? (I am for large scale clean power generation, along with solar panels and other local tech. Just the ones with big money aren't - you know, the ones that make the laws and pass them on to Congress.)
      - hx87 10y ago
        > Why bother with remote power generation and such, when I can hang stuff on my roof and get free energy? Because the sun is down for about half a day each day. However, halfway across the world, the sun is shining. Wouldn't it be nice if you could get power from there?
      - _ph_ 10y ago
        Sun has two large problems: a) the nights and b) bad weather. A) is quite predictable and usually electricity consumption is lower in the night but b) needs a fix. So large scale grids can not only extend the time per day solar energy is available but also compensate for bad weather. Over large enough areas, the total solar output is more constant. Add in a good amount of wind energy a pretty constant load should be bearable with renewal energies with very little of storage.
    - carapace 10y ago
      *Principles D'oh!
greydius 10y ago
What about all the coal miners that will lose their jobs because of renewable energy?
- banach 10y ago
  Education for those who want another job, basic income for the rest.
- cossatot 10y ago
  This project would probably involve a few construction and maintenance jobs.
  - anotherboffin 10y ago
    Absolutely. All projects will need maintenance and I hope there will be a way for people to get the necessary training. Plus, coal deposits do run out sooner or later, so keeping coal mines and power plants in business just kicks the problem to a few decades down the road.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  What about all the ferriers?
- mavdi 10y ago
  Getting real tired of coal miners, their expired jobs and their voting rights.
  - piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago
    > and their voting rights I bet you call yourself a 'liberal democrat'.
- _ph_ 10y ago
  Their jobs get replaced by all the jobs created for setting up and maintaining the renewal energy production. Most coal mining jobs got killed when mining became mechanized. So there might even be more jobs after transitioning to renewal energies.
the8472 10y ago
> The next step in the process was the establishment of the nonprofit Global Energy Interconnection Development and Cooperation Organization Interesting, that reminds me of IXPs. E.g. AMS-IX is one of the world's largest exchange points (shared infrastructure) and it is a non-profit.
- binalpatel 10y ago
  Maybe I'm generalizing too much - but couldn't we say that electricity generation is starting to resemble the internet more and more? Servers (generators) that provide content, users (consumers) that want to consume it. As more and more people use things like rooftop solar - more servers are brought online, and the infrastructure needs to be updated accordingly to direct the "traffic" well.
  - rybosome 10y ago
    That's exactly the idea behind the term "smart grid". Rather than a network which has a relatively static set of inputs and outputs, new nodes in either category can join the network at any time. The US is doing research on smart grids, though I don't have any real familiarity with it - would love to hear more from someone who does.
harisenbon 10y ago
I'm crazy excited that this might actually have a chance to come to fruition. Back in my salary-man days, I worked for Hiroshi Fujiwara when he was doing work on Superconducting DC technology. The idea was similar to this one -- set up solar and wind generators in the Gobi desert, and transmit the energy through a superconductor network to Japan, Russia and other countries. The Superconductor system (I believe) could transmit energy at nearly 99% efficiency, We got to see the 200m superconductor track at Chubu University, which was amazingly cool. [1]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389212021268 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389212...
- codesnik 10y ago
  but how much would it cost to operate such a channel?
  - Gravityloss 10y ago
    Looking at some ballpark estimates what targets it should hit, Japan consumes about one petawatt hour per year. We assume 10% of electricity consumption for one cable and a 10% slice of the value for transport. Electricity price 20 c/kWh: 10^15 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.2 x 10^-3 = 2 billion dollars per year I have been saying it for a while. Looks like the renewables will cause a lot of long distance electricity transfer lines to be built. It's an industry ready for some disruption too.
leojg 10y ago
Maybe the biggest blocker for this project is the nations involved. Can such degree of cooperation be made between nations that have huge political differences, violent history and territorial claims between each other? Other than that, this could set the precedent for more regional integration, which is awesome.
- _nedR 10y ago
  The only reason i know these countries have a history is from watching this video a couple day back(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o). It is strange but i never really thought of Russia as neighbours with China or Korea with a shared history.
- sametmax 10y ago
  Especially for Japan. It means if the mood changes with China, they can get cut off very easily, with little backup plan.
- 6t6t6t6 10y ago
  Developing these kinds of infrastructures that require tight collaboration between governments are a warranty of peace on the future. When countries are interdependent for their mutual growth and well-being, they have no other option than maintaining peace and good diplomatic relationships.
- supergirl 10y ago
  Which countries don't have all that?
surfmike 10y ago
As a small country I really wouldn't want to be reliant on a grid shared with either China or Russia.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  "Controlled by", I would understand, but why not "shared with"?
  - surfmike 10y ago
    Once you're a small country sharing the grid with a big neighbor , I'd imagine it would be very difficult to go independent after.
- binalpatel 10y ago
  I think this is an important point - geopolitical issues are part of the equation. When Russia was invading (or liberating, based on your viewpoint) Kiev, energy reliance on Russia did play a key part in some nations willingness/unwillingness to take part in sanctions/retaliation. Given that - if 90% of a shared resource is controlled by one or two large entities (made up numbers), that puts you in a weaker position as one of the smaller entities in the 10%.

112 points by binalpatel 10y ago

The article's about two months old - but I thought it was a fascinating idea. I know that one of the challenges of harnessing renewable energy is battery technology not being up to he task (yet), but I'd never thought about creating a grid large enough that demand is smoothed out over a large region.

reacweb 10y ago
Could it be feasible at the scale of the planet ?
- binalpatel 10y ago
  I'm not an expert - so I can't say for sure. The article does mention that Japan apparently runs two different "grids" that are so different, that it's close to impossible to connect the two. I'd imagine that issues like that would compound as more and more countries are added?
  - msl 10y ago
    Not every two countries use mutually incompatible mains systems; see for example [0] to see a real time map showing an electricity market with multiple nations as participants. Note also, that your AC grids do not need to be compatible to transfer power between them, and even if they are, you might want to convert to and from DC in between - see [1] for examples of this. I have no idea why it is impossible for the Japanese connect their grids, but I am guessing the problem is not one of technology. Edit: Reading the Wikipedia article on the subject [2] it seems that the incompatible Japanese grids are indeed interconnected to a degree. It also seems that the electricity market in Japan being currently liberalized, which I take to mean that it has traditionally not been particularily open for competition. That might explain why nobody has been in a hurry to improve the system as a whole. [0] http://www.statnett.no/Kraftsystemet/ http://www.statnett.no/Kraftsystemet/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Japan
  - reacweb 10y ago
    It seems 50Hz and 60 Hz are the only relevant standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Standardization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Standardizat...
  - rurounijones 10y ago
    Japan has two grids that run at different frequencies. (50hz and 60hz) They are actually connected but can only transfer about 2000MW from one to the other via the one connection point. They have plans to add more interconnects starting in 2020.
- peller 10y ago
  I suspect the transmission losses would be too great for it to make too much sense.[1] But even if that weren't a problem, well, politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Lo...
  - treehau5 10y ago
    Not just politics, security as well. One bad actor could wipe out the power grid for most of the world's superpowers.
    - binalpatel 10y ago
      How would that hypothetical work out? I know that the grids - as they stand right now - must balance generation and consumption. Would a large outage (or large spike) in any given part of the interconnected grids be able to take out all of it?
      - msl 10y ago
        The Wikipedia article on Cascading failure [0] lists a few examples of this kind of a large scale grid failure. You start by taking one (or some) power plants down, thus overloading others trying to reblance the system, and possibly failing too. Such a chain reaction can, over multiple generations, take a great many power plants down. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascading_failure
  - perfunctory 10y ago
    from the article: Nine regional interconnected grids are already functioning within China, so the technical feasibility of transmitting electricity across long distances at high voltages has already been proven.
    - peller 10y ago
      Eh yea, but there's an economic feasibility limit too. From the Wiki article I linked: "As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for direct-current transmission was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For alternating current it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi), though all transmission lines in use today are substantially shorter than this." [It's unclear when "today" means, or at what voltage these lines were running. But the 1000KV range this renewable grid is running is pretty typical, and, is in the ballpark of these quoted distances.] For reference, the circumference of earth is about 40,000km (as parent was pondering). The thing is, transformers and wire haven't exactly changed much since 1980. So until we can figure out room-temperature super conductivity, or a more efficient way of massively scaling up/down voltages than transformers, I'm inclined to believe the situation hasn't changed much since then. Then again, I'd love to be proved wrong.
- Retric 10y ago
  You can link US / Russia with a 50 mile under sea electric cable. Which would join, Afro-Eurasia with the Americas fairly easily. However, local storage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricit...) is going to be cheaper than shifting solar power around the globe. Further, while you can connect any two grids (worst case generator / alternator pair) that does not make it cost effective.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    The Bering Strait? Easily? There's all sorts of things that are easy if you focus on an easy part that doesn't accomplish anything.
    - Retric 10y ago
      You may have missed my point. Under sea cables that distance are proven tech. EX: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_to_England_Interconnector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_to_England_Interco... a 40 MW 65 mile under sea cable.) However, my point was geography was not the problem.
      - maxerickson 10y ago
        I was thinking more about the thousands of miles separating the straight from any large groups of people (on both sides). Yes, crossing the straight is nicely feasible. Putting power to that crossing is not so nicely feasible.
        Retric 10y ago
        Sure, sending 100+GW of power though there would be ridiculously expensive and a huge waste of resources. However, there are some people in the area so sending "nominal" amounts of power would not be an issue. I do wonder how connected these areas are to a wider power grid. It's probably cheaper to just have local power generation than run power cables to these remote areas I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_Alaska https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales,_Alaska has 150 people. ED: Anyway, it's an economic not a technical problem.
- carapace 10y ago
  Bucky Fuller promoted the idea of a World Grid. One of his foundational principals is that as the system you design for gets larger you can engineer greater efficiencies. I think a "mesh network" for power would be better than a global "client/server" format, but economics, politics, etc...
  - kefka 10y ago
    Solar proves the opposite, as it is hyper-local. Why bother with remote power generation and such, when I can hang stuff on my roof and get free energy? (I am for large scale clean power generation, along with solar panels and other local tech. Just the ones with big money aren't - you know, the ones that make the laws and pass them on to Congress.)
    - hx87 10y ago
      > Why bother with remote power generation and such, when I can hang stuff on my roof and get free energy? Because the sun is down for about half a day each day. However, halfway across the world, the sun is shining. Wouldn't it be nice if you could get power from there?
    - _ph_ 10y ago
      Sun has two large problems: a) the nights and b) bad weather. A) is quite predictable and usually electricity consumption is lower in the night but b) needs a fix. So large scale grids can not only extend the time per day solar energy is available but also compensate for bad weather. Over large enough areas, the total solar output is more constant. Add in a good amount of wind energy a pretty constant load should be bearable with renewal energies with very little of storage.
  - carapace 10y ago
    *Principles D'oh!

greydius 10y ago

What about all the coal miners that will lose their jobs because of renewable energy?

banach 10y ago
Education for those who want another job, basic income for the rest.
cossatot 10y ago
This project would probably involve a few construction and maintenance jobs.
- anotherboffin 10y ago
  Absolutely. All projects will need maintenance and I hope there will be a way for people to get the necessary training. Plus, coal deposits do run out sooner or later, so keeping coal mines and power plants in business just kicks the problem to a few decades down the road.
pavel_lishin 10y ago
What about all the ferriers?
mavdi 10y ago
Getting real tired of coal miners, their expired jobs and their voting rights.
- piotrjurkiewicz 10y ago
  > and their voting rights I bet you call yourself a 'liberal democrat'.
_ph_ 10y ago
Their jobs get replaced by all the jobs created for setting up and maintaining the renewal energy production. Most coal mining jobs got killed when mining became mechanized. So there might even be more jobs after transitioning to renewal energies.

the8472 10y ago

> The next step in the process was the establishment of the nonprofit Global Energy Interconnection Development and Cooperation Organization Interesting, that reminds me of IXPs. E.g. AMS-IX is one of the world's largest exchange points (shared infrastructure) and it is a non-profit.

binalpatel 10y ago
Maybe I'm generalizing too much - but couldn't we say that electricity generation is starting to resemble the internet more and more? Servers (generators) that provide content, users (consumers) that want to consume it. As more and more people use things like rooftop solar - more servers are brought online, and the infrastructure needs to be updated accordingly to direct the "traffic" well.
- rybosome 10y ago
  That's exactly the idea behind the term "smart grid". Rather than a network which has a relatively static set of inputs and outputs, new nodes in either category can join the network at any time. The US is doing research on smart grids, though I don't have any real familiarity with it - would love to hear more from someone who does.

harisenbon 10y ago

I'm crazy excited that this might actually have a chance to come to fruition. Back in my salary-man days, I worked for Hiroshi Fujiwara when he was doing work on Superconducting DC technology. The idea was similar to this one -- set up solar and wind generators in the Gobi desert, and transmit the energy through a superconductor network to Japan, Russia and other countries. The Superconductor system (I believe) could transmit energy at nearly 99% efficiency, We got to see the 200m superconductor track at Chubu University, which was amazingly cool. [1]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389212021268 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389212...

codesnik 10y ago
but how much would it cost to operate such a channel?
- Gravityloss 10y ago
  Looking at some ballpark estimates what targets it should hit, Japan consumes about one petawatt hour per year. We assume 10% of electricity consumption for one cable and a 10% slice of the value for transport. Electricity price 20 c/kWh: 10^15 x 0.1 x 0.1 x 0.2 x 10^-3 = 2 billion dollars per year I have been saying it for a while. Looks like the renewables will cause a lot of long distance electricity transfer lines to be built. It's an industry ready for some disruption too.

leojg 10y ago

Maybe the biggest blocker for this project is the nations involved. Can such degree of cooperation be made between nations that have huge political differences, violent history and territorial claims between each other? Other than that, this could set the precedent for more regional integration, which is awesome.

_nedR 10y ago
The only reason i know these countries have a history is from watching this video a couple day back(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh5LY4Mz15o). It is strange but i never really thought of Russia as neighbours with China or Korea with a shared history.
sametmax 10y ago
Especially for Japan. It means if the mood changes with China, they can get cut off very easily, with little backup plan.
6t6t6t6 10y ago
Developing these kinds of infrastructures that require tight collaboration between governments are a warranty of peace on the future. When countries are interdependent for their mutual growth and well-being, they have no other option than maintaining peace and good diplomatic relationships.
supergirl 10y ago
Which countries don't have all that?

surfmike 10y ago

As a small country I really wouldn't want to be reliant on a grid shared with either China or Russia.

pavel_lishin 10y ago
"Controlled by", I would understand, but why not "shared with"?
- surfmike 10y ago
  Once you're a small country sharing the grid with a big neighbor , I'd imagine it would be very difficult to go independent after.
binalpatel 10y ago
I think this is an important point - geopolitical issues are part of the equation. When Russia was invading (or liberating, based on your viewpoint) Kiev, energy reliance on Russia did play a key part in some nations willingness/unwillingness to take part in sanctions/retaliation. Given that - if 90% of a shared resource is controlled by one or two large entities (made up numbers), that puts you in a weaker position as one of the smaller entities in the 10%.