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You are actually not correct; suburban areas have more intense and all encompassing parking minimum laws. Manhattan, for instance, has either none or none below

You are actually not correct; suburban areas have more intense and all encompassing parking minimum laws. Manhattan, for instance, has either none or none below 125th Street IIRC. Suburbs look like they do not because of preference but because it is not legal for them to look otherwise. The idea in the 50s was: A) Require cars to live and you will not have to live next to poor people or minorities since cars and maintenance of them are expensive, how great; Jim Crow without the legal challenges and we can co-opt non racist people B) Cars are the future and no one needs to walk, except maybe in parks C) Since this glorious future has yet to arrive naturally despite decades of mass produced automobiles, we'll need to legislate it into existence and massively fund highways D) Cities are the source of all ills Other than the racist motivations, it's really just poor planning that is copy and pasted from one place to another. A lot of cities are realizing it's stupid and removing or relaxing these laws.

dsfyu404ed 10y ago
In the 1950s vehicle ownership wasn't the significant financial hurdle you seem to think it was.
- Zach_the_Lizard 10y ago
  Car ownership today, as then, is actually a pretty big financial hurdle for the poor. Cars are probably the most expensive way of getting to work. Let's count how they are expensive: 1) Large initial capital outlay; back in 1950 this might be $1500 but your earnings might be $3300 a year. You'd either need to get a loan, save up a significant portion of your salary, or get a used car (which were less plentiful as car ownership was much lower and earlier cars were less reliable) 2) You need to pay for ongoing maintenance. Oil changes, tires, etc. all add up. In the 50s the cars were more mechanically simple, so probably the labor costs were much lower (you'd probably do at least a portion of it) but there was more work to be done. Oil changes were more frequent, things like points had to be adjusted, etc. 3) Gas is not free. In the 50s this was in the $2.00 per gallon range in 2016 dollars. Cheap, but again not free 4) Parking costs money, then and now Compare that to the previous costs: 1) Buy bus / train / subway / streetcar ticket 2) Shoes It's much easier to afford a single trip as there is no capital outlay involved. You're thinking like a well off software engineer. Think like a poor person. Several of my family members have trouble getting to work because of unreliable and expensive car based transportation. They work just above minimum wage. Their town has no real public transit to speak of, except in one or two unreliable bus lines, so getting to work is an actual hurdle.
  - iamatworknow 10y ago
    And unfortunately, related to all of the points you mentioned, this need of the poorer suburban/rural people to own their own cars is what spurs on the subprime auto finance market. If you're making minimum wage there's a good chance you have bad credit, and your only option to get to work is getting a vehicle financed at a smaller, less reliable dealership who charges huge markups on decade old vehicles with 100k+ miles, and exorbitant amounts of interest, and they won't hesitate to repossess if you miss a payment. In the past couple of years in the US the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the FTC have started working to help these types of car buyers and protect them against deceptive practices in advertising and unruly markups, much to the chagrin of the so-called "Buy Here-Pay Here" dealerships. The recent election and the deregulation culture surrounding it, however, does may not bode well for the consumers. I wouldn't be surprised if the CFPB is dissolved entirely.
loeg 10y ago
Do you have a source for the broader claim (outside of NYC) that suburban malls in particular have more intense parking minimum laws? My comment was not talking about residential parking or standalone businesses.
- Zach_the_Lizard 10y ago
  Here's an example from Tyson's Corner, VA, which you might know as the home of the world's first Apple store: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/zoningordinance/articles/art11.pdf http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/zoningordinance/articles/ar... Example quote (in the context of commercial shopping centers and parking minimums that apply): > 1,000,000 square feet of gross floor area or more: Four (4) spaces per 1000 square feet of gross floor area EDIT: Note also that you get absurd scenarios like pools requiring a space per 4 people that can use the pool, or vets having to have at least 10 spaces, and so on and so forth. Absurd regulations

dsfyu404ed 10y ago

In the 1950s vehicle ownership wasn't the significant financial hurdle you seem to think it was.

Zach_the_Lizard 10y ago
Car ownership today, as then, is actually a pretty big financial hurdle for the poor. Cars are probably the most expensive way of getting to work. Let's count how they are expensive: 1) Large initial capital outlay; back in 1950 this might be $1500 but your earnings might be $3300 a year. You'd either need to get a loan, save up a significant portion of your salary, or get a used car (which were less plentiful as car ownership was much lower and earlier cars were less reliable) 2) You need to pay for ongoing maintenance. Oil changes, tires, etc. all add up. In the 50s the cars were more mechanically simple, so probably the labor costs were much lower (you'd probably do at least a portion of it) but there was more work to be done. Oil changes were more frequent, things like points had to be adjusted, etc. 3) Gas is not free. In the 50s this was in the $2.00 per gallon range in 2016 dollars. Cheap, but again not free 4) Parking costs money, then and now Compare that to the previous costs: 1) Buy bus / train / subway / streetcar ticket 2) Shoes It's much easier to afford a single trip as there is no capital outlay involved. You're thinking like a well off software engineer. Think like a poor person. Several of my family members have trouble getting to work because of unreliable and expensive car based transportation. They work just above minimum wage. Their town has no real public transit to speak of, except in one or two unreliable bus lines, so getting to work is an actual hurdle.
- iamatworknow 10y ago
  And unfortunately, related to all of the points you mentioned, this need of the poorer suburban/rural people to own their own cars is what spurs on the subprime auto finance market. If you're making minimum wage there's a good chance you have bad credit, and your only option to get to work is getting a vehicle financed at a smaller, less reliable dealership who charges huge markups on decade old vehicles with 100k+ miles, and exorbitant amounts of interest, and they won't hesitate to repossess if you miss a payment. In the past couple of years in the US the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the FTC have started working to help these types of car buyers and protect them against deceptive practices in advertising and unruly markups, much to the chagrin of the so-called "Buy Here-Pay Here" dealerships. The recent election and the deregulation culture surrounding it, however, does may not bode well for the consumers. I wouldn't be surprised if the CFPB is dissolved entirely.

loeg 10y ago

Do you have a source for the broader claim (outside of NYC) that suburban malls in particular have more intense parking minimum laws? My comment was not talking about residential parking or standalone businesses.

Zach_the_Lizard 10y ago
Here's an example from Tyson's Corner, VA, which you might know as the home of the world's first Apple store: http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/zoningordinance/articles/art11.pdf http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpz/zoningordinance/articles/ar... Example quote (in the context of commercial shopping centers and parking minimums that apply): > 1,000,000 square feet of gross floor area or more: Four (4) spaces per 1000 square feet of gross floor area EDIT: Note also that you get absurd scenarios like pools requiring a space per 4 people that can use the pool, or vets having to have at least 10 spaces, and so on and so forth. Absurd regulations