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That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody." and your post is a good example for the no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _r

That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody." and your post is a good example for the no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _really_ used it dislikes it." All I really know about this is how I feel about it and I must admit that I am going to go back to the PC world when the time comes to replace my current MBP. The offerings in the PC world are not perfect for me but they suit me better. I bought my MBP because at the time it was actually the cheapest machine offering all those features at a high build quality. I didn't get into a dependency on OSX and am pretty confident that I can just migrate fully to Linux. So I guess I'm not _really_ a professional Mac user.

nicky0 10y ago
At least it is a refreshing counterpoint to the "if it doesn't suit me, it can't suit anybody" sentiment that I've seen a lot of.
ubernostrum 10y ago
That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody." 99.9%+ of criticism of the new MBP has been of the form "Without ever interacting with one, I can tell it is unsuitable for me and therefore is unsuitable for anyone, anywhere, in any professional purpose, ever". no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _really_ used it dislikes it." More like "people are pre-emptively concluding, without ever having so much as been in the same room as a new MBP, that it is the antithesis of everything they need from a computer". Which is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. I've suggested in the past that this feels less like "I have legitimate criticism of this product" and more like "I hate the manufacturer, always have hated and always will hate the manufacturer, and see this as a convenient cover for venting my hatred of the manufacturer". Notice how much of the criticism veers quickly away from specific aspects of the product and into "this is classic Apple", "this is how Apple treats users", "this is what's wrong with Apple", "Apple abandoning a key segment again", etc.
- brazzledazzle 10y ago
  I don't care about the touch bar and while I'm miffed about the magsafe I can deal with shelling out extra for accidental damage insurance. Personally my disappointment is with the specs which no time with the machine will change. The mac I'm currently using was purchased 3 years with 16GB of RAM and if I replace it I will be stuck with the same capacity. I imagine there are a lot of "Pro" market segments that are well served by 16GB or less though. I'm hoping the next revision gets a >16GB capacity and it's released before I need to replace this one.
  - muninn_ 10y ago
    The ram you were using 3 years ago is a lot slower than the ram they have put into the new MacBook pros. So there is that benefit at least. 32 GB is a lot of ram. What do you do where you need that much ram in a laptop? Is that the limiting factor in performance for you versus another component? Have you considered a desktop/tablet combo or anything like that?
    - brazzledazzle 10y ago
      To be fair I don't bump up against it daily so this isn't some kind of deal breaker. Just disappointing. Mostly virtualization (server and/or desktop operating systems) but sometimes decent sized datasets (which really aren't too bad from SSD) and occasionally those things combined with software that is... written poorly. I used to use both a desktop and laptop but it was more trouble than it was worth. I might have to revisit but I'll miss having those workloads local. I have no doubt I'm an outlier and I certainly don't expect Apple to change anything. I'm not really resentful, just disappointed.
      - muninn_ 10y ago
        I see. I was really just curious because for the longest time I got by with just 4gb on a MacBook Air until I switched to the MacBook and 8gb. I run VMs and other software on it but never really ran into a RAM issue. I think there is hope though. They'll put 32gb of ram in eventually. The explanation was that 32 uses too much power, and of course the rebuttal is "stop making it so thin", which I sympathize with. On the other hand, I do like thin and light computers.
- static_noise 10y ago
  > 99.9%+ of criticism of the new MBP has been of the form "Without ever interacting with one, I can tell it is unsuitable for me and therefore is unsuitable for anyone, anywhere, in any professional purpose, ever". While this some truth in it, it is not what I took away from the discussion. Most people complain about the following: * "I expected more." * "I expected the price for the same specs to drop or at least stay constant but not to rise." * "I cannot use this machine to do the work in the way I do it currently. This and that port is missing." While there is a great deal of hate towards Apple, the comments I've read here are not driven by hate but by disappointment. The old MBP lineup was very good for these people. They like them very much. Some love Apple, some don't care but they all agree that the old hardware is very solid for a reasonable price. I really do think that the new MBPs are good machines for >90% of the current MBP users. A bit more expensive but not too unreasonable given that most are locked into the Apple ecosystem. Some may need some adapters for things like digital cameras, projectors, monitors, USB sticks, keyboards etc. but that doesn't really matter to a true Apple customer. Most of the time the machine is used without those devices. What Apple should worry a bit about, though, is, that the top 1-3% users are now looking for other hardware. But who am I to worry about Apples strategy. Probably they don't need those few powerusers anyways in their future business model. I don't even hold Apple stock currently. My old MBP runs fine still and I'm not locked into their ecosystem. I can move onto the greener lawn at any time.
- kabdib 10y ago
  I interacted with one last week. That interaction confirmed everything I said earlier about the MBP (horrible keyboard, bad choices about ports, etc.). I've been around the consumer tech industry a long time. I've shipped a considerable amount of consumer computing gear and am very familiar with the design process and the many tradeoffs that happen when you take something from a cool idea to heavy in someone's hands. One of the places I did this was Apple, in fact. Apple seems to have decided to shift the market for the MBP by making tradeoffs that don't target any of the professionals I know. I also know that (a) my predictions about the hardware were correct, and (b) none of the professionals I know plan to buy one, beyond the one or two samples we're getting into our group just to make sure we're making the right decision. And now we're looking at Linux laptops in a serious way. Professionals, yup.
  - thesimpsons1022 10y ago
    anecdotally i know that i and most of my friends would never buy one at this price point for just the basic model. but we'd be fine with it if our workplaces bought it for us and paid for all the expensive cords to make a multi monitor setup possible
- overgard 10y ago
  The keyboard is missing keys I use and the specs are unimpressive. I dont need to sit down with it to know this.
- gurkendoktor 10y ago
  > More like "people are pre-emptively concluding, without ever having so much as been in the same room as a new MBP, that it is the antithesis of everything they need from a computer". Many of the complaints are about plain old hardware specs, especially RAM and the USB-C connectors. You don't need to hold a MacBook in your hands to understand how much RAM it has and how many dongles you'll need to buy. Same for complaints about the price.
tracker1 10y ago
I am in a similar situation... I bought my current MBP and will use it until it dies more than likely, but not sure if I'd buy another Mac. The touchpad on the MBP is second to none, which is what kept me this time but there's a massive premium there. I use Mac, windows and Linux daily... And honestly the Mac is the most odd ui of the three for me. Having bash is pretty nice as is homebrew... I'm really hoping MS puts similar effort into a Linux version, since I know I'm not the only one going that direction... Been considering it on my mbp...
- coredog64 10y ago
  I just bought a Magic Trackpad 2 and am using it with Windows 7. It requires the purchase of a $10 utility to get all the fancy stuff (scrolling, right click), but it's not bad.
  - tracker1 10y ago
    Got a link to said utility? I'd love to have one at work (windows)... Currently using a mouse, the apple trackpad is so good though, only device I don't miss a mouse with.
WildGreenLeave 10y ago
Agreed, I love my Macbook Pro (2015 edition), however if I have to replace it in a few years I'm not buying the current Macbook Pro, instead I'll look for a comparable Windows laptop and put Linux on it. (If only there was a real Macbook competitor out there)
- AsyncAwait 10y ago
  Something like the DELL XPS line or the Clevo P650RE may serve you well, the Clevo can fit up to 64G DDR4 RAM, GTX 1070 and a 4K screen. The only thing it doesn't have is the battery life of the MBP, but if you want raw power, you may be plugged in most of the time anyway.
- rayiner 10y ago
  No way apple doesn't have a 32GB option the next cycle.
- rayiner 10y ago
  No way apple doesn't have a 32GB option the next cycle.

nicky0 10y ago

At least it is a refreshing counterpoint to the "if it doesn't suit me, it can't suit anybody" sentiment that I've seen a lot of.

ubernostrum 10y ago

That article is a typical example of "If it suits me, it must suit everybody." 99.9%+ of criticism of the new MBP has been of the form "Without ever interacting with one, I can tell it is unsuitable for me and therefore is unsuitable for anyone, anywhere, in any professional purpose, ever". no-true-Scotsman-fallacy of "Noone who _really_ used it dislikes it." More like "people are pre-emptively concluding, without ever having so much as been in the same room as a new MBP, that it is the antithesis of everything they need from a computer". Which is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. I've suggested in the past that this feels less like "I have legitimate criticism of this product" and more like "I hate the manufacturer, always have hated and always will hate the manufacturer, and see this as a convenient cover for venting my hatred of the manufacturer". Notice how much of the criticism veers quickly away from specific aspects of the product and into "this is classic Apple", "this is how Apple treats users", "this is what's wrong with Apple", "Apple abandoning a key segment again", etc.

brazzledazzle 10y ago
I don't care about the touch bar and while I'm miffed about the magsafe I can deal with shelling out extra for accidental damage insurance. Personally my disappointment is with the specs which no time with the machine will change. The mac I'm currently using was purchased 3 years with 16GB of RAM and if I replace it I will be stuck with the same capacity. I imagine there are a lot of "Pro" market segments that are well served by 16GB or less though. I'm hoping the next revision gets a >16GB capacity and it's released before I need to replace this one.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  The ram you were using 3 years ago is a lot slower than the ram they have put into the new MacBook pros. So there is that benefit at least. 32 GB is a lot of ram. What do you do where you need that much ram in a laptop? Is that the limiting factor in performance for you versus another component? Have you considered a desktop/tablet combo or anything like that?
  - brazzledazzle 10y ago
    To be fair I don't bump up against it daily so this isn't some kind of deal breaker. Just disappointing. Mostly virtualization (server and/or desktop operating systems) but sometimes decent sized datasets (which really aren't too bad from SSD) and occasionally those things combined with software that is... written poorly. I used to use both a desktop and laptop but it was more trouble than it was worth. I might have to revisit but I'll miss having those workloads local. I have no doubt I'm an outlier and I certainly don't expect Apple to change anything. I'm not really resentful, just disappointed.
    - muninn_ 10y ago
      I see. I was really just curious because for the longest time I got by with just 4gb on a MacBook Air until I switched to the MacBook and 8gb. I run VMs and other software on it but never really ran into a RAM issue. I think there is hope though. They'll put 32gb of ram in eventually. The explanation was that 32 uses too much power, and of course the rebuttal is "stop making it so thin", which I sympathize with. On the other hand, I do like thin and light computers.
static_noise 10y ago
> 99.9%+ of criticism of the new MBP has been of the form "Without ever interacting with one, I can tell it is unsuitable for me and therefore is unsuitable for anyone, anywhere, in any professional purpose, ever". While this some truth in it, it is not what I took away from the discussion. Most people complain about the following: * "I expected more." * "I expected the price for the same specs to drop or at least stay constant but not to rise." * "I cannot use this machine to do the work in the way I do it currently. This and that port is missing." While there is a great deal of hate towards Apple, the comments I've read here are not driven by hate but by disappointment. The old MBP lineup was very good for these people. They like them very much. Some love Apple, some don't care but they all agree that the old hardware is very solid for a reasonable price. I really do think that the new MBPs are good machines for >90% of the current MBP users. A bit more expensive but not too unreasonable given that most are locked into the Apple ecosystem. Some may need some adapters for things like digital cameras, projectors, monitors, USB sticks, keyboards etc. but that doesn't really matter to a true Apple customer. Most of the time the machine is used without those devices. What Apple should worry a bit about, though, is, that the top 1-3% users are now looking for other hardware. But who am I to worry about Apples strategy. Probably they don't need those few powerusers anyways in their future business model. I don't even hold Apple stock currently. My old MBP runs fine still and I'm not locked into their ecosystem. I can move onto the greener lawn at any time.
kabdib 10y ago
I interacted with one last week. That interaction confirmed everything I said earlier about the MBP (horrible keyboard, bad choices about ports, etc.). I've been around the consumer tech industry a long time. I've shipped a considerable amount of consumer computing gear and am very familiar with the design process and the many tradeoffs that happen when you take something from a cool idea to heavy in someone's hands. One of the places I did this was Apple, in fact. Apple seems to have decided to shift the market for the MBP by making tradeoffs that don't target any of the professionals I know. I also know that (a) my predictions about the hardware were correct, and (b) none of the professionals I know plan to buy one, beyond the one or two samples we're getting into our group just to make sure we're making the right decision. And now we're looking at Linux laptops in a serious way. Professionals, yup.
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  anecdotally i know that i and most of my friends would never buy one at this price point for just the basic model. but we'd be fine with it if our workplaces bought it for us and paid for all the expensive cords to make a multi monitor setup possible
overgard 10y ago
The keyboard is missing keys I use and the specs are unimpressive. I dont need to sit down with it to know this.
gurkendoktor 10y ago
> More like "people are pre-emptively concluding, without ever having so much as been in the same room as a new MBP, that it is the antithesis of everything they need from a computer". Many of the complaints are about plain old hardware specs, especially RAM and the USB-C connectors. You don't need to hold a MacBook in your hands to understand how much RAM it has and how many dongles you'll need to buy. Same for complaints about the price.

tracker1 10y ago

I am in a similar situation... I bought my current MBP and will use it until it dies more than likely, but not sure if I'd buy another Mac. The touchpad on the MBP is second to none, which is what kept me this time but there's a massive premium there. I use Mac, windows and Linux daily... And honestly the Mac is the most odd ui of the three for me. Having bash is pretty nice as is homebrew... I'm really hoping MS puts similar effort into a Linux version, since I know I'm not the only one going that direction... Been considering it on my mbp...

coredog64 10y ago
I just bought a Magic Trackpad 2 and am using it with Windows 7. It requires the purchase of a $10 utility to get all the fancy stuff (scrolling, right click), but it's not bad.
- tracker1 10y ago
  Got a link to said utility? I'd love to have one at work (windows)... Currently using a mouse, the apple trackpad is so good though, only device I don't miss a mouse with.

WildGreenLeave 10y ago

Agreed, I love my Macbook Pro (2015 edition), however if I have to replace it in a few years I'm not buying the current Macbook Pro, instead I'll look for a comparable Windows laptop and put Linux on it. (If only there was a real Macbook competitor out there)

AsyncAwait 10y ago
Something like the DELL XPS line or the Clevo P650RE may serve you well, the Clevo can fit up to 64G DDR4 RAM, GTX 1070 and a 4K screen. The only thing it doesn't have is the battery life of the MBP, but if you want raw power, you may be plugged in most of the time anyway.
rayiner 10y ago
No way apple doesn't have a 32GB option the next cycle.
rayiner 10y ago
No way apple doesn't have a 32GB option the next cycle.