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More than a few developers have spoken up on the issue here on HN. The escape key is commonly used, as are many other function keys. Other vendors have rolled

by Steeeve 10y ago

More than a few developers have spoken up on the issue here on HN. The escape key is commonly used, as are many other function keys. Other vendors have rolled out similar gadgets to apple and they've been rejected by the development community at large - which apple would have known because they don't implement things like that willy nilly.

Kipters 10y ago
Since we're talking about what is basically a rebrand of Xamarin Studio, the current release of Xamarin Studio for Mac uses the function keys for stepping in the debugger
- xrisk 10y ago
  Well, now they can use the touch bar to show those functions depending on context. Isn't that better overall for usability rather than having to remember keybinds for every action?
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    It seems like it would be better in the short term (don't have to learn the bindings), but worse in the long term if it's something you do often (no way to find the keys' edges without looking every time you press the key, with the occasional glance down again to correct for drift). Whether that's "better overall" or not depends on individual usage patterns. Personally, I don't really stray from the alphanumeric part of the keyboard often, and I can rebind esc, so the Touchbar's mostly a moot point for me. My strongest reason to dislike it is that it adds yet another set of potential points of failure for the machine without providing (for my purposes) much benefit.
  - Kipters 10y ago
    I usually don't have to _remember_ keybindings, I use them out of muscle memory and feeling the actual keys with my fingers, using the larger cracks in desktop keyboard between the function keys to find the right way quickly without averting my eyes from the screen. No touch bar can replace that kind of efficiency.
    - xrisk 10y ago
      Maybe, but for the average user who doesn't have keybinds committed to muscle memory, the touch bar is going to be a real boon.
      - Kipters 10y ago
        So... the common non-pro user that would look down on the keyboard anyway?
  - growse 10y ago
    If I've got to constantly look between the screen and the keyboard to make sure my finger hasn't wandered off "step into" and onto "continue", then that feels much worse for usability.
- jeffhuys 10y ago
  For those apps you can just enable "function mode", if it's not already enabled by default.
gutnor 10y ago
> they've been rejected by the development community at large I remember the time when everybody was getting one of these: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b# https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hh... Apple tinkering with the function keys has allowed the development community to recongratulate themselves with IDE it seems. Seems also that people confidently touch type debugger instruction, despite the key that you want being literally squeezed between 2 keys that will ruin you debugging session and make you lose the next 10 minutes. I think the developer community at large is more prone to overreaction. Note that I think people are going to be impacted. I think the touchbar is a downgrade for people that needs to use Windows either in the VM or Bootcamp. Some IDE are especially F-keys happy like Eclipse will be slightly worst of. I still type on an old MBP with physical F-keys and they are actually awful for touch typing. They are smaller, evenly spaced (no grouped) and not aligned with the lower key rows. If you are serious about touch typing potentially workflow ruining key combination like debugger ones, you must use an external keyboard already.

by Steeeve 10y ago

Kipters 10y ago

Since we're talking about what is basically a rebrand of Xamarin Studio, the current release of Xamarin Studio for Mac uses the function keys for stepping in the debugger

xrisk 10y ago
Well, now they can use the touch bar to show those functions depending on context. Isn't that better overall for usability rather than having to remember keybinds for every action?
- khedoros1 10y ago
  It seems like it would be better in the short term (don't have to learn the bindings), but worse in the long term if it's something you do often (no way to find the keys' edges without looking every time you press the key, with the occasional glance down again to correct for drift). Whether that's "better overall" or not depends on individual usage patterns. Personally, I don't really stray from the alphanumeric part of the keyboard often, and I can rebind esc, so the Touchbar's mostly a moot point for me. My strongest reason to dislike it is that it adds yet another set of potential points of failure for the machine without providing (for my purposes) much benefit.
- Kipters 10y ago
  I usually don't have to _remember_ keybindings, I use them out of muscle memory and feeling the actual keys with my fingers, using the larger cracks in desktop keyboard between the function keys to find the right way quickly without averting my eyes from the screen. No touch bar can replace that kind of efficiency.
  - xrisk 10y ago
    Maybe, but for the average user who doesn't have keybinds committed to muscle memory, the touch bar is going to be a real boon.
    - Kipters 10y ago
      So... the common non-pro user that would look down on the keyboard anyway?
- growse 10y ago
  If I've got to constantly look between the screen and the keyboard to make sure my finger hasn't wandered off "step into" and onto "continue", then that feels much worse for usability.
jeffhuys 10y ago
For those apps you can just enable "function mode", if it's not already enabled by default.

gutnor 10y ago

> they've been rejected by the development community at large I remember the time when everybody was getting one of these: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2&pid=pdkb400b# https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hh... Apple tinkering with the function keys has allowed the development community to recongratulate themselves with IDE it seems. Seems also that people confidently touch type debugger instruction, despite the key that you want being literally squeezed between 2 keys that will ruin you debugging session and make you lose the next 10 minutes. I think the developer community at large is more prone to overreaction. Note that I think people are going to be impacted. I think the touchbar is a downgrade for people that needs to use Windows either in the VM or Bootcamp. Some IDE are especially F-keys happy like Eclipse will be slightly worst of. I still type on an old MBP with physical F-keys and they are actually awful for touch typing. They are smaller, evenly spaced (no grouped) and not aligned with the lower key rows. If you are serious about touch typing potentially workflow ruining key combination like debugger ones, you must use an external keyboard already.