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During an interesting project with my previous employer, a friend and I both put 80-hour weeks for a month, even though our manager told us that they can only p

During an interesting project with my previous employer, a friend and I both put 80-hour weeks for a month, even though our manager told us that they can only pay us for a max of 50 hours a week due to their policies (it was a big corporation). Still we were happy to do it because the project was challenging. So when I read that 37signals is reducing their work week it puzzles me!! If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway? And how can a 5-day week and a 4-day week produce the same amount of work, unless a lot of time is wasted on non-productive activities?

umjames 19y ago
It's about not burning yourself out and promoting results over putting in hours. I'm sure if employees at 37signals want to work more, no one is going to stop them. You can be happy without working overtime at a job you love. The more time that your job allows you not to be there, the more time you have to pursue passions of your own choosing. This makes for more well-rounded, happier, employees. And it's this well-roundedness that's going to pay off for them in the long-run. Personally, I love that 37signals is challenging so much of the status quo in business.
comatose_kid 19y ago
Am I glad that you're not my boss. Please get a clue and read Peopleware (The "Spanish Theory Management" section applies here in spades). "If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway?" is precisely the wrong way to look at this. * If an employee is happy, expecting them to work more hours is probably not the best way to keep them happy. * Productivity goes down when you spend 16 hours a day at work. Creativity suffers as well. * Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers are too incompetent to schedule tasks appropriately. * Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers don't understand that results aren't proportional to face time. Any hacker aspiring to be an entrepreneur should rebel at being asked to put in 80 hour weeks for $0. You're not going to do your best work, and your life/health will suffer. It defies common sense.
- waleedka 19y ago
  You're making the assumption that I'm advocating 80 hour weeks, and then continuing to argue against it. Maybe I wasn't clear. Expecting employees to work overtime is obviously not the right approach. Creating an environment that's so much fun that employees would choose to work overtime is. I like Google's approach better than 37singals'. Google created a fun environment so that employees stay longer because the love it, not because they have to.
seekely 19y ago
It's just as easy to be passionate and challenged working 32 - 40 hours a week as it is working 80 hours a week. The difference being one schedule will be maintainable and balanced, while the other will lead to inevitable burnout. Burnout hurts. A lot.
- SwellJoe 19y ago
  "Burnout hurts. A lot." I think this is worth repeating every few days until it is thoroughly internalized. I burn out every once in a while...and when it happens, my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks. I have to be careful to keep exercising every day, spend a reasonable amount of time watching movies or playing music or games and interacting with other people, or a weird sort of do-nothing depression kicks in. I don't even realize it while I'm working, until it's too late. I can even be enjoying what I'm doing, and having some satisfaction about results, but if I overdo it, something clicks and the next time I run into anything slightly frustrating/boring/repetitive it's all over and the burnout kicks in.
  - michaelneale 19y ago
    "my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks" - for me it has been months, sometimes years. I guess it could kind of turn you off for a whole career.
Xichekolas 19y ago
Never work more hours than they are willing to pay you for. Would your employer give you an extra 30 hours a week off because they found your startup idea interesting? No, so don't give them an extra 30 hours of work for free either. It'd be different if you had equity or some further promise of long term benefit.
- waleedka 19y ago
  Maybe I wasn't too clear. The employer didn't ask me or expect me to work overtime. In fact my manager was asking me to go home. But I was enjoying the work so much, I did it for the fun of it. And I would do it again if I come across interesting projects.

umjames 19y ago

It's about not burning yourself out and promoting results over putting in hours. I'm sure if employees at 37signals want to work more, no one is going to stop them. You can be happy without working overtime at a job you love. The more time that your job allows you not to be there, the more time you have to pursue passions of your own choosing. This makes for more well-rounded, happier, employees. And it's this well-roundedness that's going to pay off for them in the long-run. Personally, I love that 37signals is challenging so much of the status quo in business.

comatose_kid 19y ago

Am I glad that you're not my boss. Please get a clue and read Peopleware (The "Spanish Theory Management" section applies here in spades). "If their employees are happy, shouldn't they be staying overtime anyway?" is precisely the wrong way to look at this. * If an employee is happy, expecting them to work more hours is probably not the best way to keep them happy. * Productivity goes down when you spend 16 hours a day at work. Creativity suffers as well. * Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers are too incompetent to schedule tasks appropriately. * Morale goes down when engineers realize that managers don't understand that results aren't proportional to face time. Any hacker aspiring to be an entrepreneur should rebel at being asked to put in 80 hour weeks for $0. You're not going to do your best work, and your life/health will suffer. It defies common sense.

waleedka 19y ago
You're making the assumption that I'm advocating 80 hour weeks, and then continuing to argue against it. Maybe I wasn't clear. Expecting employees to work overtime is obviously not the right approach. Creating an environment that's so much fun that employees would choose to work overtime is. I like Google's approach better than 37singals'. Google created a fun environment so that employees stay longer because the love it, not because they have to.

seekely 19y ago

It's just as easy to be passionate and challenged working 32 - 40 hours a week as it is working 80 hours a week. The difference being one schedule will be maintainable and balanced, while the other will lead to inevitable burnout. Burnout hurts. A lot.

SwellJoe 19y ago
"Burnout hurts. A lot." I think this is worth repeating every few days until it is thoroughly internalized. I burn out every once in a while...and when it happens, my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks. I have to be careful to keep exercising every day, spend a reasonable amount of time watching movies or playing music or games and interacting with other people, or a weird sort of do-nothing depression kicks in. I don't even realize it while I'm working, until it's too late. I can even be enjoying what I'm doing, and having some satisfaction about results, but if I overdo it, something clicks and the next time I run into anything slightly frustrating/boring/repetitive it's all over and the burnout kicks in.
- michaelneale 19y ago
  "my productivity is shot...sometimes for weeks" - for me it has been months, sometimes years. I guess it could kind of turn you off for a whole career.

Xichekolas 19y ago

Never work more hours than they are willing to pay you for. Would your employer give you an extra 30 hours a week off because they found your startup idea interesting? No, so don't give them an extra 30 hours of work for free either. It'd be different if you had equity or some further promise of long term benefit.

waleedka 19y ago
Maybe I wasn't too clear. The employer didn't ask me or expect me to work overtime. In fact my manager was asking me to go home. But I was enjoying the work so much, I did it for the fun of it. And I would do it again if I come across interesting projects.