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Ask HN: Will we have time to understand that singularity happened?

6 points by arisAlexis 10y ago

According to the theory the super intelligence will better itself in seconds many times over. From then on it could probably control internet, camouphlage itself, create black holes, manipulate all people and so forth. Maybe it even puts us in a Matrix without even allowing anyone to know that it has arrived.I see no reason why it would signal its creators vs pretending a software malfunction or something.

BjoernKW 10y ago
As far as estimates go (if such an event can be estimated at all) the usual time frame is "a few weeks up to a few months" starting from the first strong AI. Exponential growth starts very slow, even slower than linear growth at first.
T-A 10y ago
To call it a "theory" is a wild stretch. The only honest answer is that we don't have a clue, because we don't have a theory of intelligence. Without that, we have no rational way to estimate how far we are from human-like AI or how fast it could evolve past that point, once attained. My wild-assed guess? Based only on the ridiculous amount of computation needed to simulate neurons, the first roughly human-like AI will stretch the hardware it's running on, and the budget of the organization responsible, to its absolute limit. It will probably not even run in real time, more like 1:100 or worse, with its creators rationalizing that ratio as actually being good for their scientific purposes (a slow-motion process is easier to control, study, debug). Hardware is hard and expensive, and attempts to scale up to real time will only be made once there is a convincing case that there are no easy design gains left to be had. It will take years. And once that happens, you will have a roughly human-like AI who has no more of a clue how to make itself smarter than you and I do.
- arisAlexis 10y ago
  There is a theory of intelligence and metrics for that why do you say that?
  - T-A 10y ago
    I don't think you and I mean the same thing when we say "theory". Here's Wikipedia's definition [1], which is pretty standard: "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed, preferably using a written, pre-defined, protocol of observations and experiments. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge." There is of course no such thing for intelligence; if there were, general artificial intelligence would be a mere implementation problem. It is anything but. As for "metrics", I guess you mean IQ tests. But being able to measure a manifestation of a thing (e.g. "this mineral affects photographic plates at a distance") is far from identical to having any understanding of that thing (e.g. nuclear physics). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
    - arisAlexis 10y ago
      There is a very well established theory of intelligence and scientific branch called psychometrics since the start of the century. If see you live in US its the country with the most widespread use of iq tests in SAT, army, law schools etc. I am not even sure if we need to understand it fully to build an AI that is capable.or producing the measurable output of it. Since it will outperform humans in everything it doesnt matter imo. I suggest the book Superintelligence talks about these exact questions. Semi jokingly, we understand much less of quantum theory than intelligence.
      - T-A 10y ago
        > There is a very well established theory of intelligence and scientific branch called psychometrics Psychometrics is a field of study concerned with the theory and technique of psychological measurement. [1] It is most definitely not a theory of intelligence. > I am not even sure if we need to understand it fully to build an AI Indeed not, since it is completely irrelevant to how intelligence works. > I suggest the book Superintelligence talks about these exact questions. I've read it. A TLDR would go something like this: "Suppose we were to create an almighty entity which does not share our values. Could that be a problem for us? Gosh, yes!". Wild assumptions aside, it makes no mention of psychometrics (of course). > Semi jokingly, we understand much less of quantum theory than intelligence. Quite seriously: absolutely not. Quantum mechanics is a perfectly well defined mathematical construct. It makes experimentally verifiable predictions. Our best, most precise theories of nature are quantum theories. We have no theory of intelligence. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics
usgroup 10y ago
I don't really get this. What is it that super intelligence is supposed to be able to do that cannot otherwise be done? We are pretty well compartmentalised against 'superior intelligence' anyway so it seems. Not too many philosopher kings around these last few millennia.
- ingenter 10y ago
  > What is it that super intelligence is supposed to be able to do that cannot otherwise be done? Find patterns a human would never be able to. Find winning strategies we could not predict. Building models that don't fit a human brain. An example would be recent AlphaGo matches: AlphaGo wins. We don't know how it wins, we can't predict it's strategy, we just know it wins.
  - usgroup 10y ago
    Humans use tools to find patterns. Typically you don't read a dataset and look for patterns. We build optimisations, regression models, search algos, etc. We also build functions that build functions from data. Yes, we know how AlphaGo wins. It's architecture is known and understood, as is it's training and how to replicate it. It doesn't mean you can predict what it's next move will be nor "why" it made it but it does what it was programmed to do. This is all just an expression of innately human capability. Bigger and faster does not mean different in kind.

arisAlexis 10y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point although I understand and partially agree with your arguments. Because we do not precisely know how intelligence works (because surely we agree it exists) that means that we can never create an equally powerful version we have or you disagree about the creation of a better version. There is nothing to prevent us from doing the first
- T-A 10y ago
  I am saying that we do not know which algorithm to use in order to implement a general artificial intelligence. Even if somebody gave you unlimited resources to do it - all the computers and programmers you want - you would currently be unable to do it, because we don't know how to do it. That obviously does not mean that we will never know. It does not even mean that we necessarily need to know. In fact, a scenario which Yudkowski likes to worry about is that somebody will essentially make brain-like hardware and get something going without any real understanding of how it works. That "only" requires duplicating the structure of the brain, not understanding it. That is the scenario which I alluded to in my wild-assed guess. Whichever approach turns out to be the one that first gets to a human-level AI, the fact that we do not have a theory makes it impossible to predict how long it will take and how fast the result will be able to improve. Even if all we need to do is mass-produce a few million functional equivalents of cortical columns and hook them all up somehow, we are not currently able to guess how the resulting intelligence will scale. If we double the number of columns, will its IQ double? Quadruple? Or maybe only grow linearly, or logarithmically, or as the square root of the number of columns? Or maybe not grow at all, because it's not just a matter of quantity, but of certain architectural features which do not scale?
  - arisAlexis 10y ago
    I see that we do actually agree. My assumption was that if somehow something we create artificially can better itself then it would then probably do very rapidly. My questions was that is it possible (sci-fi discussion) for it to do it so fast that we do not even realize it ever happened.