8 ms·

It is, I encourage Libertarians & Anarchists to go live their dreams, you can live in a community or lack thereof that shares your values, and if you are unwill

by moyta 10y ago

It is, I encourage Libertarians & Anarchists to go live their dreams, you can live in a community or lack thereof that shares your values, and if you are unwilling to live in a community that shares the values you advocate and support, you should seriously rethink your values. This is why I can't respect people like Peter Thiel, he would rather take all the benefits he can accrue from a society he so loathes, but he refuses to live in any of the Libertarian communities that exist. What kind of person can't even stand up for their core beliefs? An unrespectable pile in my experience. I know I will get downvoted for this comment, and I encourage you to respond.

thomasfoster96 10y ago
I'm no fan of Peter Thiel's politics, but where are these libertarian communities you speak of [1]? I can't think of any libertarian government that currently has power any where. [1] I'm excluding anarchist communities.
- pluma 10y ago
  Maybe someone should spread the rumor that Liberia is the ultimate Libertarian paradise (I mean, it's in the name and the flag looks similar enough to the US).
- _andromeda_ 10y ago
  Indeed there are none. If there were, I'd gladly move there. One of the biggest challenges that arises when the concept of true libertarian societies comes up is how the democratic governments of the world would respond. I think they'd be overly envious and embargo the libertarian societies. Of course, the democracies would try to justify this by arguing that, 'If you want to isolate yourself from us, then don't even bother trading with us'. However, this argument totally misses the point; secession and libertarianism don't advocate for protectionism, only free trade. Nonetheless, I suspect there'll be a wave of secessionist movements that will take over the world in the 21st century. This is the only hope (or is it Hoppe) that anarcho-capitalism has.
  - wav-part 10y ago
    Thats why I think an association of corporations with huge trading power will be the first one to successfully pull this off.
    - _andromeda_ 10y ago
      Yes,that would work but only if the 'Liberlands' aren't set up as tax havens. Doing this would only antagonize the democracies.
      - wav-part 10y ago
        Governments see tax heaven everywhere. In the governments eye, they dont tax you 40% - they let you keep 60%. So any drop in tax revenue would certainly antagonize them. Thats why I said the trading power is neccessery for governments to stomach the harsh reality : They get power from the commerce not the other way around.
  - vacri 10y ago
    What the? Democratic nations aren't jealous teenagers. If they envy your living standards, they try to trade with you, not embargo you. Unless there's a lot of human rights violations going on (eg north korea, apartheid-era south africa), democratic nations are up for trade. The libertarian echo chamber produces some truly bizarre ideas.
    - speeder 10y ago
      Go see the history of all recent attempts in creating new countries, including guys willing to build islands from scratch... all of them ended badly, even bombings happened.
      - _andromeda_ 10y ago
        Thank you. That's exactly my point. If no envy exists, why stop someone from creating soverign territories. It is no wonder Keynes said, 'In the end we're all dead'. He might as well have added, '...so long as it is all of us'
hueving 10y ago
In the US, you are pathetic if you just leave rather than fight for your values. There is a point in having free speech and elected representatives.
- moyta 10y ago
  Then get out in the streets and protest and organize a movement. This isn't rocket science, if Trump, Obama, Bernie, MLK, etc can do it, Peter Thiel can sure do it. Kicking back in your armchair and doing jack isn't a plan, it is defeat.
  - coldtea 10y ago
    He sponsored a politician who he believes (rightly or not) that can move things his way, and pressumably other efforts. Not everything is about protesting in the streets. Besides, protest against what? Tons of people that want to live in a different way that what you suggest? The only real way would be to convince them...
wav-part 10y ago
To answer your question, Libertarians are self-interested people [1]. They would only move to a location that increase their purchasing power. Frankly I dont want a Libertarian US but 3189 micro countries each experimenting with different mixture of laws. May the best win. Everyone know big corporations are to be avoided but they fail to extend the argument to mega-states. [1] Like everyone else. Libertarians are just honest enough to admit it.
dmichulke 10y ago
> you can live in a community or lack thereof that shares your values The thing is, as a Libertarian you literally can't. One principal idea is to live without coercion, but as long as you're part of a tax collecting state, you are to "share" part of the fruits of your labor with authorities you do not recognize or else... Secondly, the rights and laws (such as really free speech or free contracts) are overridden (e.g., by hate speech, minimum salary, anti-discrimination laws, ...), so there is no way you can meaningfully establish a libertarian society within a current nation state. Finally, there are other (possibly quasi-) monopolies (such as monopoly on violence, Taxi licenses ~ anti-Uber, Hotel Services ~ anti-AirBnB) that you cannot get rid of unless you get rid of the controlling entity. Note the difference to e.g. communist societies where you can just start sharing everything (much like you might already be doing within your family).
- vacri 10y ago
  The monopoly on violence doesn't go away in libertarian-land, they just try to hide it. How to solve disputes? Courts. And if you don't submit to the court's will? Um... oh yeah, we need state "violence" after all, same as the democracies we mock.
  - dmichulke 10y ago
    Yes and no. Yes we need courts and no, we can choose them (unlike now). Same for enforcement. Violence yes, monopoly no.
    - grzm 10y ago
      Re: choosing courts. Depends on the jurisdiction, doesn't it? In some jurisdictions, judges are elected. In others they're appointed by representatives who are elected. At least I believe those are the common cases in democracies. (And there's another couple of assumptions.) Or am I misunderstanding? Wouldn't be the first time.
      - dmichulke 10y ago
coldtea 10y ago
>This is why I can't respect people like Peter Thiel, he would rather take all the benefits he can accrue from a society he so loathes, but he refuses to live in any of the Libertarian communities that exist. What kind of person can't even stand up for their core beliefs? A pragmatic, as opposed to batshit-crazy, person? Standing up for what you believe the country/society in general should be run is not the same as creating some bizarro micro-community that is not an actual country and living there... The same reason why people e.g. against racism don't go live on made-up non-racism communities, but try to make the community they live in less/no racist.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- _andromeda_ 10y ago
  First of all, you're right about trying to correct the wrongs in the society you live in - as Thiel had done. I do however disagree that creating new sovereign territories is bizarre and unwarranted. Thiel himself has partnered with Milton Friedman's grandson to establish the sea steading institute which is very commendable. There is a real danger of the whole world turning socialist and communist before the inevitable collapse on it's own weight. Where would you run to if government turned against you? Where would you run if you were Snowden? If you look at the EU and UN, these are just signs of what's to come; one wolrd government that eventually collapses due to inherent inefficiencies. I for one am really glad Brexit happened. More territories need to follow the same route.

by moyta 10y ago

thomasfoster96 10y ago

I'm no fan of Peter Thiel's politics, but where are these libertarian communities you speak of [1]? I can't think of any libertarian government that currently has power any where. [1] I'm excluding anarchist communities.

pluma 10y ago
Maybe someone should spread the rumor that Liberia is the ultimate Libertarian paradise (I mean, it's in the name and the flag looks similar enough to the US).
_andromeda_ 10y ago
Indeed there are none. If there were, I'd gladly move there. One of the biggest challenges that arises when the concept of true libertarian societies comes up is how the democratic governments of the world would respond. I think they'd be overly envious and embargo the libertarian societies. Of course, the democracies would try to justify this by arguing that, 'If you want to isolate yourself from us, then don't even bother trading with us'. However, this argument totally misses the point; secession and libertarianism don't advocate for protectionism, only free trade. Nonetheless, I suspect there'll be a wave of secessionist movements that will take over the world in the 21st century. This is the only hope (or is it Hoppe) that anarcho-capitalism has.
- wav-part 10y ago
  Thats why I think an association of corporations with huge trading power will be the first one to successfully pull this off.
  - _andromeda_ 10y ago
    Yes,that would work but only if the 'Liberlands' aren't set up as tax havens. Doing this would only antagonize the democracies.
    - wav-part 10y ago
      Governments see tax heaven everywhere. In the governments eye, they dont tax you 40% - they let you keep 60%. So any drop in tax revenue would certainly antagonize them. Thats why I said the trading power is neccessery for governments to stomach the harsh reality : They get power from the commerce not the other way around.
- vacri 10y ago
  What the? Democratic nations aren't jealous teenagers. If they envy your living standards, they try to trade with you, not embargo you. Unless there's a lot of human rights violations going on (eg north korea, apartheid-era south africa), democratic nations are up for trade. The libertarian echo chamber produces some truly bizarre ideas.
  - speeder 10y ago
    Go see the history of all recent attempts in creating new countries, including guys willing to build islands from scratch... all of them ended badly, even bombings happened.
    - _andromeda_ 10y ago
      Thank you. That's exactly my point. If no envy exists, why stop someone from creating soverign territories. It is no wonder Keynes said, 'In the end we're all dead'. He might as well have added, '...so long as it is all of us'

hueving 10y ago

In the US, you are pathetic if you just leave rather than fight for your values. There is a point in having free speech and elected representatives.

moyta 10y ago
Then get out in the streets and protest and organize a movement. This isn't rocket science, if Trump, Obama, Bernie, MLK, etc can do it, Peter Thiel can sure do it. Kicking back in your armchair and doing jack isn't a plan, it is defeat.
- coldtea 10y ago
  He sponsored a politician who he believes (rightly or not) that can move things his way, and pressumably other efforts. Not everything is about protesting in the streets. Besides, protest against what? Tons of people that want to live in a different way that what you suggest? The only real way would be to convince them...

wav-part 10y ago

To answer your question, Libertarians are self-interested people [1]. They would only move to a location that increase their purchasing power. Frankly I dont want a Libertarian US but 3189 micro countries each experimenting with different mixture of laws. May the best win. Everyone know big corporations are to be avoided but they fail to extend the argument to mega-states. [1] Like everyone else. Libertarians are just honest enough to admit it.

dmichulke 10y ago

> you can live in a community or lack thereof that shares your values The thing is, as a Libertarian you literally can't. One principal idea is to live without coercion, but as long as you're part of a tax collecting state, you are to "share" part of the fruits of your labor with authorities you do not recognize or else... Secondly, the rights and laws (such as really free speech or free contracts) are overridden (e.g., by hate speech, minimum salary, anti-discrimination laws, ...), so there is no way you can meaningfully establish a libertarian society within a current nation state. Finally, there are other (possibly quasi-) monopolies (such as monopoly on violence, Taxi licenses ~ anti-Uber, Hotel Services ~ anti-AirBnB) that you cannot get rid of unless you get rid of the controlling entity. Note the difference to e.g. communist societies where you can just start sharing everything (much like you might already be doing within your family).

vacri 10y ago
The monopoly on violence doesn't go away in libertarian-land, they just try to hide it. How to solve disputes? Courts. And if you don't submit to the court's will? Um... oh yeah, we need state "violence" after all, same as the democracies we mock.
- dmichulke 10y ago
  Yes and no. Yes we need courts and no, we can choose them (unlike now). Same for enforcement. Violence yes, monopoly no.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Re: choosing courts. Depends on the jurisdiction, doesn't it? In some jurisdictions, judges are elected. In others they're appointed by representatives who are elected. At least I believe those are the common cases in democracies. (And there's another couple of assumptions.) Or am I misunderstanding? Wouldn't be the first time.
    - dmichulke 10y ago

coldtea 10y ago

>This is why I can't respect people like Peter Thiel, he would rather take all the benefits he can accrue from a society he so loathes, but he refuses to live in any of the Libertarian communities that exist. What kind of person can't even stand up for their core beliefs? A pragmatic, as opposed to batshit-crazy, person? Standing up for what you believe the country/society in general should be run is not the same as creating some bizarro micro-community that is not an actual country and living there... The same reason why people e.g. against racism don't go live on made-up non-racism communities, but try to make the community they live in less/no racist.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
_andromeda_ 10y ago
First of all, you're right about trying to correct the wrongs in the society you live in - as Thiel had done. I do however disagree that creating new sovereign territories is bizarre and unwarranted. Thiel himself has partnered with Milton Friedman's grandson to establish the sea steading institute which is very commendable. There is a real danger of the whole world turning socialist and communist before the inevitable collapse on it's own weight. Where would you run to if government turned against you? Where would you run if you were Snowden? If you look at the EU and UN, these are just signs of what's to come; one wolrd government that eventually collapses due to inherent inefficiencies. I for one am really glad Brexit happened. More territories need to follow the same route.