4 ms·

Slightly off topic but one thing I've long been curious about is what are the requirements to call yourself 'software engineer' as a job title? In many parts o

Slightly off topic but one thing I've long been curious about is what are the requirements to call yourself 'software engineer' as a job title? In many parts of the world claiming to be an engineer (in a professional capacity) without the required qualifications opens you (and your employer) up to all sorts of liability issues. I am a Materials Engineer I've long suspected the software engineer title is not regulated anywhere near as heavily.

mgkimsal 10y ago
AFAIK, it's not regulated at all - certainly nowhere in the US that I've lived. But... I don't call myself a materials engineer, which probably has some sort of licensing or regulation, no?
- bigger_cheese 10y ago
  It was more of a curiosity mostly centered around liability. I was curious for example what happens if you write a piece of safety critical software and it fails. Can you be found at fault as the author? Where does the responsibility lie is it with your employer who hired you on the presumption of qualifications?
  - trprog 10y ago
    >who hired you on the presumption of qualifications? This whole line of thinking doesn't really apply to software development. Formal qualifications are, at best, only required to get you a first interview. Formal software development qualifications are generally regarded as being only tangentially related to the ability to do the job.
    - bigger_cheese 10y ago
      How do companies avoid being found negligent i.e. Could a company be sued for hiring someone grossly incompetent on the basis they did not vet the employees competence? I'd always presumed there were similar requirements (i.e open source licenses often disclaim liability for code released under them)
      - trprog 10y ago
        >Could a company be sued for hiring someone grossly incompetent on the basis they did not vet the employees competence? Not sure. I have personally never heard of it but that is hardly conclusive. Its not the kind of job where individuals are out making decisions on their own as a rule. Particularly at established companies people's work likely has to pass assorted automated tests and rounds of human review and testing. And then the companies software is wrapped in extremely carefully worded licences and contracts to limit liability. Also bear in mind that software is typically produced behind closed doors. The external users of the software likely have no idea as to the identities of the humans producing the software they use. You would never know if someone incompetent was hired (assuming their poor quality work somehow got released) because you don't know if the software is being produced by 1 or 100 humans.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - di4na 10y ago
        Because noone knows how to vet effectively. And we still have no idea what "being a software engineer" mean.
      - Const-me 10y ago
        Disclaimer: IANAL. Most licenses disclaim liability. 99% of all software comes with an end-user license agreement saying “we aren’t liable for anything that’s gonna happen to you because of our software”. Also, EULAs sometimes (like in MS Windows) forbid usage of the software in safety-critical applications, defined as “device or system in which a malfunction of the software would result in foreseeable risk of injury or death to any person” Other 1% of the software, legal teams underperformed and were unable to press public enough to accept similar agreements. So, in automotive, avionics and especially medical devices, users sometimes indeed sue manufacturers over faulty software. However, I’ve never heard about a process for hiring someone incompetent. People usually bring claims against companies for making a defective product, asking for compensation.
      - fulafel 10y ago
        Here's one court verdict where the software counsultancy was found liable in spite of using liability disclaimers in the legalese: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=94545fff-9587-460e-ba8a-a42ad8bcbe7d http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=94545fff-9587-... It sounds unlikely that employee school papers would be the deciding factor though.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - 13of40 10y ago
    When I'm wearing my work hat, I'm a "Senior Security Software Engineer". It's a title given to me by HR to identify my role at the company, not a statement about my training. In fact I'm self-taught and have no degree.
psyc 10y ago
The title software engineer is not a claim to be an engineer, anymore than software architect is a claim to be an architect.
BenElgar 10y ago
It's certainly regulated in some places, Iceland for example, and in the UK there would often be the assumption - though probably not the legal requirement - that you'd taken a degree that has been granted accredited status by the national Engineering Council. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer#Regulatory_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer#Regulatory_c...
- noir_lord 10y ago
  Its for the degree reason I call myself a programmer not a software engineer. I'm better than lots of people I've met with the degree but I don't want people to infer that I have a degree from that convention.
geooooooooobox 10y ago
I think the fact that Software Engineering not being regulated has been offset by the fact that the concept of open source code and open information (relative to other branches of engineering) pushes good practices to pretty much every programmer on the planet without asking (most of the time) and peer pressure is heavily against anyone who tries to sneak away or laze. I think software engineering is unique in being a collective of uncoordinated knowledge that self-heals and self-optimizes. All thanks to the open source movement and the n-number of tutorials online.

mgkimsal 10y ago

AFAIK, it's not regulated at all - certainly nowhere in the US that I've lived. But... I don't call myself a materials engineer, which probably has some sort of licensing or regulation, no?

bigger_cheese 10y ago
It was more of a curiosity mostly centered around liability. I was curious for example what happens if you write a piece of safety critical software and it fails. Can you be found at fault as the author? Where does the responsibility lie is it with your employer who hired you on the presumption of qualifications?
- trprog 10y ago
  >who hired you on the presumption of qualifications? This whole line of thinking doesn't really apply to software development. Formal qualifications are, at best, only required to get you a first interview. Formal software development qualifications are generally regarded as being only tangentially related to the ability to do the job.
  - bigger_cheese 10y ago
    How do companies avoid being found negligent i.e. Could a company be sued for hiring someone grossly incompetent on the basis they did not vet the employees competence? I'd always presumed there were similar requirements (i.e open source licenses often disclaim liability for code released under them)
    - trprog 10y ago
      >Could a company be sued for hiring someone grossly incompetent on the basis they did not vet the employees competence? Not sure. I have personally never heard of it but that is hardly conclusive. Its not the kind of job where individuals are out making decisions on their own as a rule. Particularly at established companies people's work likely has to pass assorted automated tests and rounds of human review and testing. And then the companies software is wrapped in extremely carefully worded licences and contracts to limit liability. Also bear in mind that software is typically produced behind closed doors. The external users of the software likely have no idea as to the identities of the humans producing the software they use. You would never know if someone incompetent was hired (assuming their poor quality work somehow got released) because you don't know if the software is being produced by 1 or 100 humans.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - di4na 10y ago
      Because noone knows how to vet effectively. And we still have no idea what "being a software engineer" mean.
    - Const-me 10y ago
      Disclaimer: IANAL. Most licenses disclaim liability. 99% of all software comes with an end-user license agreement saying “we aren’t liable for anything that’s gonna happen to you because of our software”. Also, EULAs sometimes (like in MS Windows) forbid usage of the software in safety-critical applications, defined as “device or system in which a malfunction of the software would result in foreseeable risk of injury or death to any person” Other 1% of the software, legal teams underperformed and were unable to press public enough to accept similar agreements. So, in automotive, avionics and especially medical devices, users sometimes indeed sue manufacturers over faulty software. However, I’ve never heard about a process for hiring someone incompetent. People usually bring claims against companies for making a defective product, asking for compensation.
    - fulafel 10y ago
      Here's one court verdict where the software counsultancy was found liable in spite of using liability disclaimers in the legalese: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=94545fff-9587-460e-ba8a-a42ad8bcbe7d http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=94545fff-9587-... It sounds unlikely that employee school papers would be the deciding factor though.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- 13of40 10y ago
  When I'm wearing my work hat, I'm a "Senior Security Software Engineer". It's a title given to me by HR to identify my role at the company, not a statement about my training. In fact I'm self-taught and have no degree.

psyc 10y ago

The title software engineer is not a claim to be an engineer, anymore than software architect is a claim to be an architect.

BenElgar 10y ago

It's certainly regulated in some places, Iceland for example, and in the UK there would often be the assumption - though probably not the legal requirement - that you'd taken a degree that has been granted accredited status by the national Engineering Council. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer#Regulatory_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineer#Regulatory_c...

noir_lord 10y ago
Its for the degree reason I call myself a programmer not a software engineer. I'm better than lots of people I've met with the degree but I don't want people to infer that I have a degree from that convention.

geooooooooobox 10y ago

I think the fact that Software Engineering not being regulated has been offset by the fact that the concept of open source code and open information (relative to other branches of engineering) pushes good practices to pretty much every programmer on the planet without asking (most of the time) and peer pressure is heavily against anyone who tries to sneak away or laze. I think software engineering is unique in being a collective of uncoordinated knowledge that self-heals and self-optimizes. All thanks to the open source movement and the n-number of tutorials online.