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Knowing, abstractly, that doing X can result in Y punishment, and having internalized it to the point that you think of this fact as a deterrent when you're con

Knowing, abstractly, that doing X can result in Y punishment, and having internalized it to the point that you think of this fact as a deterrent when you're considering whether to do X, are not the same thing. It's similar to (but not the same, I think, as) the difference between not doing X because you've been told Y will happen, and not doing X because you have memories of doing X and Y happening - the latter is a lot more deeply ingrained. Consider newly-minted adults in prosperous environments leaving their parents' home for college for the first time - they have a theoretical knowledge of the various stresses, risks, and concerns that will arise when they live on their own, but until they've actually done it for a while and had various mishaps, it won't be nearly as well-calibrated and digested into their thinking. Or consider the uptick of music piracy when the internet was just becoming ubiquitous - people knew, abstractly, that it was theft, and could carry consequences, but that didn't enter into most of their considerations.

cryptarch 10y ago
"Piracy is theft" Digital piracy is not theft. It's like taking pictures in a museum when it's not allowed. It's taking a picture of public buildings in the wrong country. It's copyright infringement and an issue for the civil court, not the criminal court. Edit: your other points are good though :)
- TeMPOraL 10y ago
  Regardless of whether piracy is or isn't a theft, it's actually a pretty good example. The fact is, people can and are fined and imprisoned for piracy. And yet this fact is very remote to most people who pirate copyrighted content.
  - imaginenore 10y ago
    I don't think many people are imprisoned for piracy, if any. I'm not talking about filming in a movie theater, i'm talking downloading content for free.
- rincebrain 10y ago
  I should have specified; I did not intend to actually weigh in on whether or not it was analogous to theft of material goods, just that people had a vague notion that it was acquiring something without paying for it and that it was not legally permissible.
NumberCruncher 10y ago
>>difference between not doing X because you've been told Y will happen, and not doing X because you have memories of doing X and Y happening I do not have to have memories about being raped in the jail to know that it is a bad experience. Am I a genius? Funny fact: I moved out with 14 to a big city for a special school and lived in a dormitory with normal guys. None of us got jailed. I hear only bad excuses.
- kriro 10y ago
  According to some scientists [1], death penalty cases have a 4.1% error rate. There's logical arguments that the error rate for life sentences is higher and for non capital felonies it might be a lot higher. Rape-Murders have a 3.3% floor with an estimated 5% ceiling [2]. I wouldn't be shocked if the rate for the none capital convictions was in the neighborhood of 10%...well actually I am shocked about it. There's probably also discrimination and some demographics get a lot more false convictions than others (I'd guess being poor doesn't help for example). [1]: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230 http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230 [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40042842?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents http://www.jstor.org/stable/40042842?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...
- rincebrain 10y ago
  The fact that none of you got jailed is actually more relevant than you seem to think. If, say, a decent portion of your classmates, including people you were friends with, were regularly accused of crimes and occasionally imprisoned for them, what effect do you think it might have on your perception of how "wrong" the acts they committed were? When cognitive dissonance arises from trying to reconcile actions that are on the opposite end of the spectrum from how you associate a person, the outcome is generally not that one of those two absolutes remains and the other shifts, but that both perceptions shift. I'm not claiming that any of this justifies poor decisions, only that it's quite feasible to have a heavily warped view ingrained in you, and that, if a split-second comes where a mildly poor decision could get exponentially worse, it's not generally the case that you spend minutes consciously considering all the options and rehearsing them - you make a decision without consciously reviewing why, and a skewed view can make a hell of a difference then.

cryptarch 10y ago

"Piracy is theft" Digital piracy is not theft. It's like taking pictures in a museum when it's not allowed. It's taking a picture of public buildings in the wrong country. It's copyright infringement and an issue for the civil court, not the criminal court. Edit: your other points are good though :)

TeMPOraL 10y ago
Regardless of whether piracy is or isn't a theft, it's actually a pretty good example. The fact is, people can and are fined and imprisoned for piracy. And yet this fact is very remote to most people who pirate copyrighted content.
- imaginenore 10y ago
  I don't think many people are imprisoned for piracy, if any. I'm not talking about filming in a movie theater, i'm talking downloading content for free.
rincebrain 10y ago
I should have specified; I did not intend to actually weigh in on whether or not it was analogous to theft of material goods, just that people had a vague notion that it was acquiring something without paying for it and that it was not legally permissible.

NumberCruncher 10y ago

>>difference between not doing X because you've been told Y will happen, and not doing X because you have memories of doing X and Y happening I do not have to have memories about being raped in the jail to know that it is a bad experience. Am I a genius? Funny fact: I moved out with 14 to a big city for a special school and lived in a dormitory with normal guys. None of us got jailed. I hear only bad excuses.

kriro 10y ago
According to some scientists [1], death penalty cases have a 4.1% error rate. There's logical arguments that the error rate for life sentences is higher and for non capital felonies it might be a lot higher. Rape-Murders have a 3.3% floor with an estimated 5% ceiling [2]. I wouldn't be shocked if the rate for the none capital convictions was in the neighborhood of 10%...well actually I am shocked about it. There's probably also discrimination and some demographics get a lot more false convictions than others (I'd guess being poor doesn't help for example). [1]: http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230 http://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230 [2]: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40042842?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents http://www.jstor.org/stable/40042842?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...
rincebrain 10y ago
The fact that none of you got jailed is actually more relevant than you seem to think. If, say, a decent portion of your classmates, including people you were friends with, were regularly accused of crimes and occasionally imprisoned for them, what effect do you think it might have on your perception of how "wrong" the acts they committed were? When cognitive dissonance arises from trying to reconcile actions that are on the opposite end of the spectrum from how you associate a person, the outcome is generally not that one of those two absolutes remains and the other shifts, but that both perceptions shift. I'm not claiming that any of this justifies poor decisions, only that it's quite feasible to have a heavily warped view ingrained in you, and that, if a split-second comes where a mildly poor decision could get exponentially worse, it's not generally the case that you spend minutes consciously considering all the options and rehearsing them - you make a decision without consciously reviewing why, and a skewed view can make a hell of a difference then.