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Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"? And why do you believe gun owne

Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"? And why do you believe gun owners view themselves as "prepping [...] for some Mad Max bullshit scenario"? Otherwise, using such language strongly discredits your already weak argument.

ux-app 10y ago
> Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"? not the op, but the way I read it is that unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill, then owning a gun makes you and your loved ones less safe. My understanding is that research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm (accidentally, or intentionally) than they are to ever actually have the opportunity to use the gun for defence. In that context the original statement makes sense.
- up_so_floating 10y ago
  Sure, that is a fair interpretation. Given such an interpretation, I find it is more sensible to label such a person "misinformed", not suffering from "utter insanity". The latter phrase immediately shuts down, at least for me, any productive discourse.
  - Mz 10y ago
    You aren't looking for productive discourse. You are promoting a very dangerous idea and pulling a single phrase completely out of context as a cheap excuse to be dismissive. I also used to pay accident claims. I have paid claims for dumbasses whose lack of gun safety practices maimed a child for life. I also denied one where his carelessness was so beyond the pale it was not covered. I don't feel any need to "respect" your supposed right to promote this terrible idea. If you want to prepare to be Mad Max, take up archery. A bow requires real skill. You won't be empowering some random jackass to kill you with your own weapon.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- masonic 10y ago
  "research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm" I take it that you've never read such research yourself; that's a gross misinterpretation (the "said firearm" qualifier is outright false).
  - ux-app 10y ago
    I'm neither for nor against gun ownership, but I am against blatant misrepresentation of the facts. The facts are: - 1 : home invasion is incredibly rare - 2 : injury and death by firearm, intentional or otherwise is incredibly high in the USA. Professor Harold Pollack, who (among other things) co-directs the University of Chicago's Crime Lab: [1] "...the everyday risks of injury, accident, domestic altercations, and suicide. The relative risks matter. And the fact is: lethal home invasions and burglaries are incredibly rare. You might not think so, since dramatic cases stick in your mind and tend to receive disproportionate press coverage. These cases are rare nonetheless." "I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious." Enjoy your guns all you like, but be honest, they are a dangerous hobby and the statistical likelihood of you or a family member being harmed or killed by a gun the family owns is far higher than the chance that - you will ever be the victim of a home invasion - you will get the chance for a high noon shoot out with a "bad guy" This is a well-cited article: http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/ http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/ [1] - http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-violence-and-the-irrational-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-viol... [2] - http://www.ibtimes.com/accidental-gun-deaths-involving-children-are-major-problem-us-2250568 http://www.ibtimes.com/accidental-gun-deaths-involving-child...
    - up_so_floating 10y ago
      This discussion has veered away from the thread topic, but, regardless, thank you for presenting data. My major reservation here is that it seems a bit disingenuous to highlight suicide, while at the same time not including injury, rape, or loss of property that result from home invasions.
- forgottenpass 10y ago
  unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill I wouldn't call that being "heavily invested" in a "culture." That skill level is better categorized as a basic competency in a specialized domain and we do a disservice to act like there is some HUGE hurdle to being a responsible gun owner. It's actually a pretty LOW bar for all but the disinterested passerby. Why does everything have to be so damn siloed? I don't belong to a "boating culture" for learning how to operate a boat and owning a jetski. There's no "woodworking culture" that I belong to just because I can show up in a shop and start ripping boards. Both of those require serious safety training too. But they're not my primary hobbies, or something I choose to socialize around.

ux-app 10y ago

> Can you clarify as to why owning a gun, as both a casual hobby and means of defense for unlikely scenarios, is "utter insanity"? not the op, but the way I read it is that unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill, then owning a gun makes you and your loved ones less safe. My understanding is that research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm (accidentally, or intentionally) than they are to ever actually have the opportunity to use the gun for defence. In that context the original statement makes sense.

up_so_floating 10y ago
Sure, that is a fair interpretation. Given such an interpretation, I find it is more sensible to label such a person "misinformed", not suffering from "utter insanity". The latter phrase immediately shuts down, at least for me, any productive discourse.
- Mz 10y ago
  You aren't looking for productive discourse. You are promoting a very dangerous idea and pulling a single phrase completely out of context as a cheap excuse to be dismissive. I also used to pay accident claims. I have paid claims for dumbasses whose lack of gun safety practices maimed a child for life. I also denied one where his carelessness was so beyond the pale it was not covered. I don't feel any need to "respect" your supposed right to promote this terrible idea. If you want to prepare to be Mad Max, take up archery. A bow requires real skill. You won't be empowering some random jackass to kill you with your own weapon.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
masonic 10y ago
"research shows that gun owners and their families are far, far more likely to be injured or killed by said firearm" I take it that you've never read such research yourself; that's a gross misinterpretation (the "said firearm" qualifier is outright false).
- ux-app 10y ago
  I'm neither for nor against gun ownership, but I am against blatant misrepresentation of the facts. The facts are: - 1 : home invasion is incredibly rare - 2 : injury and death by firearm, intentional or otherwise is incredibly high in the USA. Professor Harold Pollack, who (among other things) co-directs the University of Chicago's Crime Lab: [1] "...the everyday risks of injury, accident, domestic altercations, and suicide. The relative risks matter. And the fact is: lethal home invasions and burglaries are incredibly rare. You might not think so, since dramatic cases stick in your mind and tend to receive disproportionate press coverage. These cases are rare nonetheless." "I had the Chicago police run the number on homicides. In 2011, precisely one homicide listed "burglary" as the motive. Nationwide, there are about 100 burglary-homicides every year. When you compare that to more than 18,000 gun suicides, the conclusions seem pretty obvious." Enjoy your guns all you like, but be honest, they are a dangerous hobby and the statistical likelihood of you or a family member being harmed or killed by a gun the family owns is far higher than the chance that - you will ever be the victim of a home invasion - you will get the chance for a high noon shoot out with a "bad guy" This is a well-cited article: http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/ http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/ [1] - http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-violence-and-the-irrational-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/ http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/12/gun-viol... [2] - http://www.ibtimes.com/accidental-gun-deaths-involving-children-are-major-problem-us-2250568 http://www.ibtimes.com/accidental-gun-deaths-involving-child...
  - up_so_floating 10y ago
    This discussion has veered away from the thread topic, but, regardless, thank you for presenting data. My major reservation here is that it seems a bit disingenuous to highlight suicide, while at the same time not including injury, rape, or loss of property that result from home invasions.
forgottenpass 10y ago
unless you are heavily invested in gun culture, meaning that you have appropriate training and you shoot regularly to maintain skill I wouldn't call that being "heavily invested" in a "culture." That skill level is better categorized as a basic competency in a specialized domain and we do a disservice to act like there is some HUGE hurdle to being a responsible gun owner. It's actually a pretty LOW bar for all but the disinterested passerby. Why does everything have to be so damn siloed? I don't belong to a "boating culture" for learning how to operate a boat and owning a jetski. There's no "woodworking culture" that I belong to just because I can show up in a shop and start ripping boards. Both of those require serious safety training too. But they're not my primary hobbies, or something I choose to socialize around.