5 ms·

> diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. Think about it like eating dogs. Ther

> diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. Think about it like eating dogs. There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat, but most Westerners would throw a hissy fit rather than eat dog meat. So don't assume the prospective bride is unreasonable. In fact, assume the opposite, as she was able to read a rational explanation of the issues with diamonds, and change her mind.

tedunangst 10y ago
Horse may be a better example. Meat from carnivores tends to concentrate more toxins, which actually is a rational reason to avoid it.
- eyko 10y ago
  Horse meat is quite normal in western culture, unless if by western culture you mean anglophone countries.
  - stouset 10y ago
    And not eating it is for non-taste/texture/allergy reasons is just as absurd as wanting to have a "real" diamond. It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      Culture just tends to be arbitrary, in the details. If you don't care about potential social consequences, then feel free to ignore the parts that you find absurd.
    - alphazero_hn 10y ago
      OT aside: I sometimes like to play automatic reading (ala dada) with google. So at this moment a google search for "It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense." brings up your comment at the top of the page and a few items below this link [1] which has a section entitled "Making sense of nonsense. Conant and Diamond read Wittgenstein's Tractacus". Now I wonder if that Diamond is a chance event ("nonsense") or correlation artifact from the search algorithm ("sense"). [1]: http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/files/conant/costello%20-%20making%20sense%20of%20nonsense.pdf http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/files/conant/costello...
    - chris_7 10y ago
      Does horse meat not raise the risk of digestive system cancer, as other red meats do? (and notably unlike fish and vegetables)
  - Grishnakh 10y ago
    I can't reply to stouset for some stupid reason, but why is it "absurd" to not want to eat horse for texture reasons? My understanding is that horse meat generally does not taste that good and is very tough, because those animals get a lot of exercise; it's like deer meat. Some people like venison, and there's no stigma attached to eating it, but it's hard to buy because demand is low (and they're not raised as livestock), and the meat is generally considered "gamey" and difficult to cook properly so it's tender instead of tough and nasty. Cow and especially chicken is popular meat because it's both relatively cheap and rather easy (and fast) to cook. It's really hard to screw up cooking chicken in fact.
    - tomjakubowski 10y ago
      > I can't reply to stouset for some stupid reason On deeply nested comments, if it hasn't been long since the post was made you have to click the "permalink" ("XX minutes ago" or "XX hours ago") link to reply. I think the extra step is to help slow down flamewars ("do I really need to reply to this comment, right now?".
      - vxNsr 10y ago
        Hmmm... I didn't know that thanks for the heads up.
      - Grishnakh 10y ago
        Thanks for the info, that's very useful. If this is the intention, it seems like it'd make more sense to throw up roadblocks to only someone else who's in the comment chain, rather than to someone who hasn't been involved at all and is just chiming in. Usually, those flamewars are long chains of comments between two people.
        hueving 10y ago
        It's also useful to slowdown people dog-piling the 'obvious' response to new comments.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
woodman 10y ago
> There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat... Yes there is, unless you would make the same argument for having sex with relatives - which philosophers have rationalized against for thousands of years (way before the genetic consequences were understood). Morality is a rationalization. Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten. Diamonds don't even come close, there is no positive moral argument - just a fairly recent PR campaign.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  "Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten." I take it you've never met a cow, horse, pig, chicken or tame deer. Most animals will befriend humans if you are patient enough.
  - woodman 10y ago
    All those animals were domesticated for very different reasons. I've spent a lot of time with horses, my family had three, and they're great animals - but they don't come anywhere close to dogs when it comes to trust and the ability to read people. I've seen dogs trained with nothing more than praise - the desire to please is that strong for them. That doesn't work for horses.
    - cmdrfred 10y ago
      I've owned horses too. It depends on what you want them to do. If you want to jump on their back and ride them around, sure. I don't do that personally, and while they don't read you like a dog can I've taken unsocialized "mean" horses and turned them into friendly companion horses with nothing but patience and the occasional cookie or carrot.
- joesb 10y ago
  Unless your children keep having sex with their siblings as well, just pair of incest marriage doesn't actually have significant risk of genetic consequences.
coldtea 10y ago
>It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. It's only "deeply ingrained" in the US. In most of the Western Europe etc it's negligible. And from what I've read it wasn't some deep rooted tradition in the US either -- it took a lot of advertising from diamond companies to instill it... http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how-an-ad-campaign-invented-the-diamond-engagement-ring/385376/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how...
- tjalfi 10y ago
  http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you... has some details on the ad campaigns.
- CalRobert 10y ago
  Eh, my wife got some flack in Ireland when she didn't have a diamond engagement ring. Yet somehow we're still together.

tedunangst 10y ago

Horse may be a better example. Meat from carnivores tends to concentrate more toxins, which actually is a rational reason to avoid it.

eyko 10y ago
Horse meat is quite normal in western culture, unless if by western culture you mean anglophone countries.
- stouset 10y ago
  And not eating it is for non-taste/texture/allergy reasons is just as absurd as wanting to have a "real" diamond. It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    Culture just tends to be arbitrary, in the details. If you don't care about potential social consequences, then feel free to ignore the parts that you find absurd.
  - alphazero_hn 10y ago
    OT aside: I sometimes like to play automatic reading (ala dada) with google. So at this moment a google search for "It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense." brings up your comment at the top of the page and a few items below this link [1] which has a section entitled "Making sense of nonsense. Conant and Diamond read Wittgenstein's Tractacus". Now I wonder if that Diamond is a chance event ("nonsense") or correlation artifact from the search algorithm ("sense"). [1]: http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/files/conant/costello%20-%20making%20sense%20of%20nonsense.pdf http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/files/conant/costello...
  - chris_7 10y ago
    Does horse meat not raise the risk of digestive system cancer, as other red meats do? (and notably unlike fish and vegetables)
- Grishnakh 10y ago
  I can't reply to stouset for some stupid reason, but why is it "absurd" to not want to eat horse for texture reasons? My understanding is that horse meat generally does not taste that good and is very tough, because those animals get a lot of exercise; it's like deer meat. Some people like venison, and there's no stigma attached to eating it, but it's hard to buy because demand is low (and they're not raised as livestock), and the meat is generally considered "gamey" and difficult to cook properly so it's tender instead of tough and nasty. Cow and especially chicken is popular meat because it's both relatively cheap and rather easy (and fast) to cook. It's really hard to screw up cooking chicken in fact.
  - tomjakubowski 10y ago
    > I can't reply to stouset for some stupid reason On deeply nested comments, if it hasn't been long since the post was made you have to click the "permalink" ("XX minutes ago" or "XX hours ago") link to reply. I think the extra step is to help slow down flamewars ("do I really need to reply to this comment, right now?".
    - vxNsr 10y ago
      Hmmm... I didn't know that thanks for the heads up.
    - Grishnakh 10y ago
      Thanks for the info, that's very useful. If this is the intention, it seems like it'd make more sense to throw up roadblocks to only someone else who's in the comment chain, rather than to someone who hasn't been involved at all and is just chiming in. Usually, those flamewars are long chains of comments between two people.
      - hueving 10y ago
        It's also useful to slowdown people dog-piling the 'obvious' response to new comments.
  - Spooky23 10y ago

woodman 10y ago

> There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat... Yes there is, unless you would make the same argument for having sex with relatives - which philosophers have rationalized against for thousands of years (way before the genetic consequences were understood). Morality is a rationalization. Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten. Diamonds don't even come close, there is no positive moral argument - just a fairly recent PR campaign.

cmdrfred 10y ago
"Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten." I take it you've never met a cow, horse, pig, chicken or tame deer. Most animals will befriend humans if you are patient enough.
- woodman 10y ago
  All those animals were domesticated for very different reasons. I've spent a lot of time with horses, my family had three, and they're great animals - but they don't come anywhere close to dogs when it comes to trust and the ability to read people. I've seen dogs trained with nothing more than praise - the desire to please is that strong for them. That doesn't work for horses.
  - cmdrfred 10y ago
    I've owned horses too. It depends on what you want them to do. If you want to jump on their back and ride them around, sure. I don't do that personally, and while they don't read you like a dog can I've taken unsocialized "mean" horses and turned them into friendly companion horses with nothing but patience and the occasional cookie or carrot.
joesb 10y ago
Unless your children keep having sex with their siblings as well, just pair of incest marriage doesn't actually have significant risk of genetic consequences.

coldtea 10y ago

>It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. It's only "deeply ingrained" in the US. In most of the Western Europe etc it's negligible. And from what I've read it wasn't some deep rooted tradition in the US either -- it took a lot of advertising from diamond companies to instill it... http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how-an-ad-campaign-invented-the-diamond-engagement-ring/385376/ http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how...

tjalfi 10y ago
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you-ever-tried-to-sell-a-diamond/304575/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you... has some details on the ad campaigns.
CalRobert 10y ago
Eh, my wife got some flack in Ireland when she didn't have a diamond engagement ring. Yet somehow we're still together.