6 ms·

I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects, specifically Mesos. A number of the features required for a smaller or medium sized organization t

I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects, specifically Mesos. A number of the features required for a smaller or medium sized organization to actually use Mesos in production are only available in Mesosphere's DC/OS. And whenever those shortcomings are brought up, the answer is "oh well if you really need authentication beyond htpasswd, you can pay for DCOS." Like the article hinted at, I hope the ASF tries to do more to work with vendors to help OSS side of projects flourish rather than just be lip service.

pquerna 10y ago
If you contributed a reasonable patch to Apache Mesos, implementing a feature like enhanced authentication, and then that patch was reject with such an excuse, that would be a problem. But Mesosphere choosing not to contribute specific features back is their choice. The long term belief in a healthy community is that enough people will contribute patches that make the project better.
linuxhansl 10y ago
There are many, many ASF projects that are healthy. Take HBase... A thriving community, committers and PMC members from dozens of organizations, no open source vs commercial interest collisions. Projects backed by a single commercial entity are suspect, but can work fine as well (Kafka for example). Disclaimer: Apache HBase committer here.
- redwood 10y ago
  Cool, do you see HBase being used in prod? (Outside of Google that is). Who's using it?
  - layble 10y ago
    It's used pretty extensively at Adobe.
  - iampims 10y ago
    Google doesn't use HBase. Facebook does use it for Facebook Messages I believe.
  - x0x0 10y ago
    I heard Flurry has something like 2k+ nodes. Though post Yahoo acquisition, who knows what's going on. My company does quite unfortunately; we don't really have enough data to make it necessary and it was justified w/ vague notions of scaling blah blah blah.
  - intsunny 10y ago
    Hbase is approaching a decade of age. It is well understood, rock solid, and pretty much ever error is googleable. There are numerous companies that run it in production. Hbase may not get the press Cassandra does because of it is not as easy to setup due to some external dependencies (HDFS and Zookeeper). But its very much production ready for some epic data sets.
  - lacker 10y ago
    Facebook uses HBase pretty massively. https://code.facebook.com/posts/321111638043166/hydrabase-the-evolution-of-hbase-facebook/ https://code.facebook.com/posts/321111638043166/hydrabase-th...
  - bsg75 10y ago
    There is an interesting article about HBase vs Cassandra et al here: http://www.infoworld.com/article/3066358/analytics/hbase-the-database-big-data-left-behind.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3066358/analytics/hbase-the... I cannot validate or refute any of it. Hoping some here can.
  - startuploser 10y ago
    I've seen hbase used in production at a number of startups, and worked at one where it was used. It's very powerful and flexible, but it's also not like running any other database. Setting up Cassandra is like "java cassandra.jar". Setting up HBase is...someone's job for a while is going to be "running HBase". Anyway, I'm talking about small-ish startups that aren't super researchy technological trailblazers. There are definitely people outside of microsoft (I'm assuming that's what you meant instead of Google as Google already had BigTable and HBase started out as a Powerset project and so ended up at Microsoft) running HBase in production.
  - linuxhansl 10y ago
    Facebook, Salesforce, Google (just the HBase client APIs, though), Flurry (now Yahoo), Yahoo, Apple (Siri), Pinterest, Twitter, Rocketfuel, Huawai, SiftScience, just to name some. I work at one of the above :) where we run many, many thousand HBase servers.
vorg 10y ago
> I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects It might cause those committing the code, building the tests, and writing the doco for other ASF projects to question whether their project is being justly managed. I only watch one ASF project, Apache Groovy, and it has a similar imbalance between fluff managers and grunt workers. Although all 9 members of its PMC are committers, only 4 of them have ever committed code since Groovy joined the ASF via its incubator 18 months ago. The other 5 (i.e. chairperson Guillaume Laforge, Jim Jagielski, Roman Shaposhnik, Konstantin Boudnik, and Andrew Bayer) are all committers but have never committed any code in that time. I can't find any other technical contributions from them either. All 5 are also ASF members, whereas only 2 of the other 4 PMC members who do grunt work are ASF members. There's 10 other committers in Groovy, most of whom are more active contributors than those 5 I named, and in my view have far more merit to be on the PMC than them. OCI, the company doing Grails consulting, a few weeks ago enlisted an active PMC member (Paul King) as an OCI consultant "to coordinate contributions to Groovy". If Groovy's governance at ASF doesn't radically change fast to give PMC voices to the people doing the actual work instead of those ASF politicians, OCI might tap into the discontent and "take over" in similar style to DataStax, or even fork it like LibreOffice.
- jjirsa 10y ago
  Sometimes members of the PMC are on the PMC to help committers do things in the Apache way - Jim (in particular) is a member of the ASF board and likely mentored the project early on (I'd go check to be certain but I'm mobile at the moment).
  - vorg 10y ago
    Because it's 18 months since Groovy joined the incubator and 12 months since it became a top-level project, it could be time Jim Jagielski and all ASF members not actually contributing to Groovy leave its PMC so that the proportion of those actually committing code and similar goes up from its present 44%. OCI is ready to pounce if they don't.
    - jjirsa 10y ago

pquerna 10y ago

If you contributed a reasonable patch to Apache Mesos, implementing a feature like enhanced authentication, and then that patch was reject with such an excuse, that would be a problem. But Mesosphere choosing not to contribute specific features back is their choice. The long term belief in a healthy community is that enough people will contribute patches that make the project better.

linuxhansl 10y ago

There are many, many ASF projects that are healthy. Take HBase... A thriving community, committers and PMC members from dozens of organizations, no open source vs commercial interest collisions. Projects backed by a single commercial entity are suspect, but can work fine as well (Kafka for example). Disclaimer: Apache HBase committer here.

redwood 10y ago
Cool, do you see HBase being used in prod? (Outside of Google that is). Who's using it?
- layble 10y ago
  It's used pretty extensively at Adobe.
- iampims 10y ago
  Google doesn't use HBase. Facebook does use it for Facebook Messages I believe.
- x0x0 10y ago
  I heard Flurry has something like 2k+ nodes. Though post Yahoo acquisition, who knows what's going on. My company does quite unfortunately; we don't really have enough data to make it necessary and it was justified w/ vague notions of scaling blah blah blah.
- intsunny 10y ago
  Hbase is approaching a decade of age. It is well understood, rock solid, and pretty much ever error is googleable. There are numerous companies that run it in production. Hbase may not get the press Cassandra does because of it is not as easy to setup due to some external dependencies (HDFS and Zookeeper). But its very much production ready for some epic data sets.
- lacker 10y ago
  Facebook uses HBase pretty massively. https://code.facebook.com/posts/321111638043166/hydrabase-the-evolution-of-hbase-facebook/ https://code.facebook.com/posts/321111638043166/hydrabase-th...
- bsg75 10y ago
  There is an interesting article about HBase vs Cassandra et al here: http://www.infoworld.com/article/3066358/analytics/hbase-the-database-big-data-left-behind.html http://www.infoworld.com/article/3066358/analytics/hbase-the... I cannot validate or refute any of it. Hoping some here can.
- startuploser 10y ago
  I've seen hbase used in production at a number of startups, and worked at one where it was used. It's very powerful and flexible, but it's also not like running any other database. Setting up Cassandra is like "java cassandra.jar". Setting up HBase is...someone's job for a while is going to be "running HBase". Anyway, I'm talking about small-ish startups that aren't super researchy technological trailblazers. There are definitely people outside of microsoft (I'm assuming that's what you meant instead of Google as Google already had BigTable and HBase started out as a Powerset project and so ended up at Microsoft) running HBase in production.
- linuxhansl 10y ago
  Facebook, Salesforce, Google (just the HBase client APIs, though), Flurry (now Yahoo), Yahoo, Apple (Siri), Pinterest, Twitter, Rocketfuel, Huawai, SiftScience, just to name some. I work at one of the above :) where we run many, many thousand HBase servers.

vorg 10y ago

> I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects It might cause those committing the code, building the tests, and writing the doco for other ASF projects to question whether their project is being justly managed. I only watch one ASF project, Apache Groovy, and it has a similar imbalance between fluff managers and grunt workers. Although all 9 members of its PMC are committers, only 4 of them have ever committed code since Groovy joined the ASF via its incubator 18 months ago. The other 5 (i.e. chairperson Guillaume Laforge, Jim Jagielski, Roman Shaposhnik, Konstantin Boudnik, and Andrew Bayer) are all committers but have never committed any code in that time. I can't find any other technical contributions from them either. All 5 are also ASF members, whereas only 2 of the other 4 PMC members who do grunt work are ASF members. There's 10 other committers in Groovy, most of whom are more active contributors than those 5 I named, and in my view have far more merit to be on the PMC than them. OCI, the company doing Grails consulting, a few weeks ago enlisted an active PMC member (Paul King) as an OCI consultant "to coordinate contributions to Groovy". If Groovy's governance at ASF doesn't radically change fast to give PMC voices to the people doing the actual work instead of those ASF politicians, OCI might tap into the discontent and "take over" in similar style to DataStax, or even fork it like LibreOffice.

jjirsa 10y ago
Sometimes members of the PMC are on the PMC to help committers do things in the Apache way - Jim (in particular) is a member of the ASF board and likely mentored the project early on (I'd go check to be certain but I'm mobile at the moment).
- vorg 10y ago
  Because it's 18 months since Groovy joined the incubator and 12 months since it became a top-level project, it could be time Jim Jagielski and all ASF members not actually contributing to Groovy leave its PMC so that the proportion of those actually committing code and similar goes up from its present 44%. OCI is ready to pounce if they don't.
  - jjirsa 10y ago