7 ms·

The Apache Cassandra battle highlights major problem with open source projects

79 points by CrankyBear 10y ago

marktangotango 10y ago
This is a curiously vague article. Apparently there were issues with Cassandra's project leadership not addressing trademark issues, causing the Apache Software Foundation to remove Datastax from their leadership position. Um, ok? The author here seems to be sowing FUD about the future of the project, and by relation, all ASF projects. Anyone with knowledge of this situation care to chime in?
- _benedict 10y ago
  This is not quite what happened. Datastax employees were the controlling influence on the PMC, and the PMC failed to police copyright issues (including with Datastax marketing materials), mostly because they did not know this was their duty (and partially, in at least the case of some individuals, because they did not have any desire to participate in this duty on a volunteer basis). They were also seen to have poorly nurtured other involvement from the wider community. To some greater or lesser extent these charges were valid, and the community (not just the board, at least on the non-trademark issues) felt improvements would be welcome. But certain members of the board behaved in what appeared to be a very hostile and childish manner, by threatening Datastax with removal of every employee from the project. (I've been in heated arguments with these individuals for their behaviour, and I'll note they disavow any intended hostility, though do not disavow their actions) The ASF did not remove Datastax from anything, although they were I think involved in Jonathan Ellis (Datastax CTO) being replaced as chair. Datastax recently posted that they were planning to put much of their new feature development into their commercial version. They claim this all had nothing to do with stepping back from the project, but in all likelihood this is a "rising above it" PR position. That said, it probably is a good business decision, and may have happened sooner or later anyway.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 10y ago
    Reading this apparently biased article in favor of DataStax, it seems like no one is coming out of this situation looking good. I personally believe that DataStax may have overplayed their hand here since several of the high-powered Silicon Valley companies use Cassandra. If DS' commercial offerings aren't up to snuff, one of them will undoubtedly step in to help steer development of the source in a direction that benefits them. Cassandra is one of the better big datastore offerings out there, and the doom and gloom narrative played by the article seems a bit disingenuous to say the least.
    - x0x0 10y ago
      There's a difference between use and pay the bills to develop; fundamentally, the companies paying the engineers and testers and hardware bills thereof will control the direction of the project regardless of what the pmc wants. Or the company footing the bill for all the documentation and code samples [1]. It is also a little weird that java driver development seems to be run by DataStax and not the apache community. Hopefully this won't cause datastax to fork from apache cassandra. [1] http://www.datastax.com/2016/10/take-a-bow-planet-cassandra http://www.datastax.com/2016/10/take-a-bow-planet-cassandra
    - _benedict 10y ago
      I honestly don't see how companies, that aren't monetising Cassandra, providing resources to the project is a major risk to Datastax. This only improves Cassandra's mindshare in (and share of) the market, while leaving them to corner the large corporate client base as well as target their engineering efforts on things that can directly yield revenue. Although I think you overestimate the inclination and ability of these corporations to invest - at least to date, only Apple has demonstrated any capacity or willingness to do so, and they are fairly slow about it. Their lawyers and antiquated deployments lead to very few (but quite big) improvements, and so far all of them have needed help from Datastax to be incorporated. This is despite a largeish team of people with direct experience of participating in the project; no other SV company has any such employee at present, and bootstrapping such a team would be non-trivial. Instaclustr claims they intend to do this, but it remains to be seen how successful they will be.
qwertyuiop924 10y ago
This isn't a "major problem with open source projects," it's a problem with the governence model of one specific project, and a conflict between the ASF and the company holding a controlling majority on the board. Other than "governance is hard and politics sucks," I'm not sure what the "major problem" actually is
- jack9 10y ago
  > a problem with the governence model of one specific project, I think multiple (not many, nor all) OS projects have a leading vendor supporting the codebase in various ways. For poorly adopted or niche OS projects, hardware, computer languages, etc, this can be a deathstroke to the project.
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    Yeah, but they were saying it was a major flaw with all of OS. It isn't. In fact, if your project isn't incredibly popular, this likely won't effect you.
grizzles 10y ago
I have a feeling Apache leadership probably did the right thing here. It is after all, their brand. Recently there have been some strange things happening with the Cassandra project. Hopefully not another rethinkdb. For example, a longstanding Cassandra bug makes it hard to build the database from source if you have a modern version of maven installed. Though Cassandra builds itself using ant (why?), simply having modern maven installed is a big enough incompatibility to break the build. That's weird. Another recent weirdness is that Cassandra was shipping a non working command interpreter (cqlsh) for at least 3+ months as recently as a few months ago. That's now fixed in v3.9. I have to admit, the first thing I thought upon seeing that brokenness shipping in the binary distribution was - Is this because Datastax needs more sales?
- jjirsa 10y ago
  Can you link the jira for the mvn/ant bug? Or, if it doesn't exist, can you create it?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- winteriscoming 10y ago
  Maven has a notorious reputation of behaving differently (especially with dependency resolutions) in newer versions of its release which has lead to build failures in some of the projects that I have been involved in. So it may not really be Cassandra's fault here.
micah_chatt 10y ago
I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects, specifically Mesos. A number of the features required for a smaller or medium sized organization to actually use Mesos in production are only available in Mesosphere's DC/OS. And whenever those shortcomings are brought up, the answer is "oh well if you really need authentication beyond htpasswd, you can pay for DCOS." Like the article hinted at, I hope the ASF tries to do more to work with vendors to help OSS side of projects flourish rather than just be lip service.
- pquerna 10y ago
  If you contributed a reasonable patch to Apache Mesos, implementing a feature like enhanced authentication, and then that patch was reject with such an excuse, that would be a problem. But Mesosphere choosing not to contribute specific features back is their choice. The long term belief in a healthy community is that enough people will contribute patches that make the project better.
- linuxhansl 10y ago
  There are many, many ASF projects that are healthy. Take HBase... A thriving community, committers and PMC members from dozens of organizations, no open source vs commercial interest collisions. Projects backed by a single commercial entity are suspect, but can work fine as well (Kafka for example). Disclaimer: Apache HBase committer here.
  - redwood 10y ago
    Cool, do you see HBase being used in prod? (Outside of Google that is). Who's using it?
    - layble 10y ago
      It's used pretty extensively at Adobe.
    - iampims 10y ago
      Google doesn't use HBase. Facebook does use it for Facebook Messages I believe.
helper 10y ago
I've been a Cassandra user for 5+ years and have been watching the drama unfold on the mailing lists the past few months. I have no business relationship with Datastax and have never paid them money for any of their services (except for attending the Datastax sponsored Cassandra Summit a number of times). I'm not a committer but I have been an active member of the community opening bugs, participating in the user mailing list, Stack Overflow, maintaining a client library, etc. From my perspective it seemed like the ASF board members had already prejudged the situation before engaging in any public discussions on the Cassandra mailing lists. The first interaction was about why Cassandra doesn't ship with its own client drivers[1]. The board member believed this to be a sign of Datastax "controlling" Cassandra because they have their own high quality open source client libraries. As a user and a former maintainer of a client library, this theory came off as completely ridiculous. The project has never shipped a production ready client driver in tree. It is simply impractical to be able to do that for all the languages for which there are drivers. I've got code in three different languages in production right now and none of them use Datastax drivers. If you read that mailing list thread, that is basically what everyone says on it (including the new Casssandra PMC chair), and yet the conclusion that the ASF board member takes away is that Datastax is controlling the project by having out of tree open source client libraries. That ASF board member also got upset when a question on the mailing list was answered with a link to Datastax hosted documentation[2]. Again this seemed like an overreaction from the board member over a fixable problem as justification for a Cassandra shakeup. Then recently there was a new wave of threads about Apache and Datastax[3][4]. Both sides come off looking pretty bad in these threads. Its clear that at this point a lot of people in the Cassandra community have negative feelings toward certain members of the ASF board. It also seems like those board members have become very defensive about what has transpired. Fortunately people have started to calm down and there has been a few reasonable emails from both sides. From my perspective the ASF came off looking like they care more about the Apache trademarks than they do about the health of the community. I do believe there were some actual issues that were identified as places for improvement for the Cassandra community, but I don't think it was necessary to come in wielding a sledge hammer. It seems that the Cassandra board was not given an opportunity to fix the issues (mostly by increasing the number of project committers) before the board forced the changes. This has resulted in a lot of hurt feelings and a general sense of distrust between the Cassandra community and the ASF. All that being said, I'm not particularly worried about Cassandra's future. I was sad to see Jonathan Ellis leave as the chair person, but hearing that Nate McCall was stepping into that position put a lot of my concerns at ease. I hope that the Datastax folks know that the community appreciates all that they have contributed to the open source Cassandra project, even if the ASF doesn't. [1]: https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/72a884fa8f35cbed23135c8c771da06076d87a5a20ff5a7cd5d24001@%3Cdev.cassandra.apache.org%3E https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/72a884fa8f35cbed23135c8... [2]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg09143.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg0914... [3]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg10037.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg1003... [4]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg10020.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg1002...
jcoffland 10y ago
Yes Open-Source projects can have political issues too. I don't see how this is any different than the politics of closed source software. Why the author wants to disparage Open-Source is beyond me.
johan_larson 10y ago
Sharing is hard. Nobody making money can work. Many people making money can work. Just one party making money, that's a mofo. Full disclosure: I work for Couchbase, and our management tends to describe DataStax as a key competitor.
winteriscoming 10y ago
I haven't followed this specific Datastax vs ASF discussion, but have seen similar battles played out in recent years between some popular projects and ASF and even ESF (Eclipse foundation vs Vert.x project for example) Does anyone here know what value do these foundations bring to projects, in this day of cloud hosting/computing that make these foundations worth for the projects?

79 points by CrankyBear 10y ago

This is a curiously vague article. Apparently there were issues with Cassandra's project leadership not addressing trademark issues, causing the Apache Software Foundation to remove Datastax from their leadership position. Um, ok? The author here seems to be sowing FUD about the future of the project, and by relation, all ASF projects. Anyone with knowledge of this situation care to chime in?

_benedict 10y ago
This is not quite what happened. Datastax employees were the controlling influence on the PMC, and the PMC failed to police copyright issues (including with Datastax marketing materials), mostly because they did not know this was their duty (and partially, in at least the case of some individuals, because they did not have any desire to participate in this duty on a volunteer basis). They were also seen to have poorly nurtured other involvement from the wider community. To some greater or lesser extent these charges were valid, and the community (not just the board, at least on the non-trademark issues) felt improvements would be welcome. But certain members of the board behaved in what appeared to be a very hostile and childish manner, by threatening Datastax with removal of every employee from the project. (I've been in heated arguments with these individuals for their behaviour, and I'll note they disavow any intended hostility, though do not disavow their actions) The ASF did not remove Datastax from anything, although they were I think involved in Jonathan Ellis (Datastax CTO) being replaced as chair. Datastax recently posted that they were planning to put much of their new feature development into their commercial version. They claim this all had nothing to do with stepping back from the project, but in all likelihood this is a "rising above it" PR position. That said, it probably is a good business decision, and may have happened sooner or later anyway.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 10y ago
  Reading this apparently biased article in favor of DataStax, it seems like no one is coming out of this situation looking good. I personally believe that DataStax may have overplayed their hand here since several of the high-powered Silicon Valley companies use Cassandra. If DS' commercial offerings aren't up to snuff, one of them will undoubtedly step in to help steer development of the source in a direction that benefits them. Cassandra is one of the better big datastore offerings out there, and the doom and gloom narrative played by the article seems a bit disingenuous to say the least.
  - x0x0 10y ago
    There's a difference between use and pay the bills to develop; fundamentally, the companies paying the engineers and testers and hardware bills thereof will control the direction of the project regardless of what the pmc wants. Or the company footing the bill for all the documentation and code samples [1]. It is also a little weird that java driver development seems to be run by DataStax and not the apache community. Hopefully this won't cause datastax to fork from apache cassandra. [1] http://www.datastax.com/2016/10/take-a-bow-planet-cassandra http://www.datastax.com/2016/10/take-a-bow-planet-cassandra
  - _benedict 10y ago
    I honestly don't see how companies, that aren't monetising Cassandra, providing resources to the project is a major risk to Datastax. This only improves Cassandra's mindshare in (and share of) the market, while leaving them to corner the large corporate client base as well as target their engineering efforts on things that can directly yield revenue. Although I think you overestimate the inclination and ability of these corporations to invest - at least to date, only Apple has demonstrated any capacity or willingness to do so, and they are fairly slow about it. Their lawyers and antiquated deployments lead to very few (but quite big) improvements, and so far all of them have needed help from Datastax to be incorporated. This is despite a largeish team of people with direct experience of participating in the project; no other SV company has any such employee at present, and bootstrapping such a team would be non-trivial. Instaclustr claims they intend to do this, but it remains to be seen how successful they will be.

qwertyuiop924 10y ago

This isn't a "major problem with open source projects," it's a problem with the governence model of one specific project, and a conflict between the ASF and the company holding a controlling majority on the board. Other than "governance is hard and politics sucks," I'm not sure what the "major problem" actually is

jack9 10y ago
> a problem with the governence model of one specific project, I think multiple (not many, nor all) OS projects have a leading vendor supporting the codebase in various ways. For poorly adopted or niche OS projects, hardware, computer languages, etc, this can be a deathstroke to the project.
- qwertyuiop924 10y ago
  Yeah, but they were saying it was a major flaw with all of OS. It isn't. In fact, if your project isn't incredibly popular, this likely won't effect you.

grizzles 10y ago

I have a feeling Apache leadership probably did the right thing here. It is after all, their brand. Recently there have been some strange things happening with the Cassandra project. Hopefully not another rethinkdb. For example, a longstanding Cassandra bug makes it hard to build the database from source if you have a modern version of maven installed. Though Cassandra builds itself using ant (why?), simply having modern maven installed is a big enough incompatibility to break the build. That's weird. Another recent weirdness is that Cassandra was shipping a non working command interpreter (cqlsh) for at least 3+ months as recently as a few months ago. That's now fixed in v3.9. I have to admit, the first thing I thought upon seeing that brokenness shipping in the binary distribution was - Is this because Datastax needs more sales?

jjirsa 10y ago
Can you link the jira for the mvn/ant bug? Or, if it doesn't exist, can you create it?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
winteriscoming 10y ago
Maven has a notorious reputation of behaving differently (especially with dependency resolutions) in newer versions of its release which has lead to build failures in some of the projects that I have been involved in. So it may not really be Cassandra's fault here.

micah_chatt 10y ago

I'm curious what impact this will have on other ASF projects, specifically Mesos. A number of the features required for a smaller or medium sized organization to actually use Mesos in production are only available in Mesosphere's DC/OS. And whenever those shortcomings are brought up, the answer is "oh well if you really need authentication beyond htpasswd, you can pay for DCOS." Like the article hinted at, I hope the ASF tries to do more to work with vendors to help OSS side of projects flourish rather than just be lip service.

pquerna 10y ago
If you contributed a reasonable patch to Apache Mesos, implementing a feature like enhanced authentication, and then that patch was reject with such an excuse, that would be a problem. But Mesosphere choosing not to contribute specific features back is their choice. The long term belief in a healthy community is that enough people will contribute patches that make the project better.
linuxhansl 10y ago
There are many, many ASF projects that are healthy. Take HBase... A thriving community, committers and PMC members from dozens of organizations, no open source vs commercial interest collisions. Projects backed by a single commercial entity are suspect, but can work fine as well (Kafka for example). Disclaimer: Apache HBase committer here.
- redwood 10y ago
  Cool, do you see HBase being used in prod? (Outside of Google that is). Who's using it?
  - layble 10y ago
    It's used pretty extensively at Adobe.
  - iampims 10y ago
    Google doesn't use HBase. Facebook does use it for Facebook Messages I believe.

helper 10y ago

I've been a Cassandra user for 5+ years and have been watching the drama unfold on the mailing lists the past few months. I have no business relationship with Datastax and have never paid them money for any of their services (except for attending the Datastax sponsored Cassandra Summit a number of times). I'm not a committer but I have been an active member of the community opening bugs, participating in the user mailing list, Stack Overflow, maintaining a client library, etc. From my perspective it seemed like the ASF board members had already prejudged the situation before engaging in any public discussions on the Cassandra mailing lists. The first interaction was about why Cassandra doesn't ship with its own client drivers[1]. The board member believed this to be a sign of Datastax "controlling" Cassandra because they have their own high quality open source client libraries. As a user and a former maintainer of a client library, this theory came off as completely ridiculous. The project has never shipped a production ready client driver in tree. It is simply impractical to be able to do that for all the languages for which there are drivers. I've got code in three different languages in production right now and none of them use Datastax drivers. If you read that mailing list thread, that is basically what everyone says on it (including the new Casssandra PMC chair), and yet the conclusion that the ASF board member takes away is that Datastax is controlling the project by having out of tree open source client libraries. That ASF board member also got upset when a question on the mailing list was answered with a link to Datastax hosted documentation[2]. Again this seemed like an overreaction from the board member over a fixable problem as justification for a Cassandra shakeup. Then recently there was a new wave of threads about Apache and Datastax[3][4]. Both sides come off looking pretty bad in these threads. Its clear that at this point a lot of people in the Cassandra community have negative feelings toward certain members of the ASF board. It also seems like those board members have become very defensive about what has transpired. Fortunately people have started to calm down and there has been a few reasonable emails from both sides. From my perspective the ASF came off looking like they care more about the Apache trademarks than they do about the health of the community. I do believe there were some actual issues that were identified as places for improvement for the Cassandra community, but I don't think it was necessary to come in wielding a sledge hammer. It seems that the Cassandra board was not given an opportunity to fix the issues (mostly by increasing the number of project committers) before the board forced the changes. This has resulted in a lot of hurt feelings and a general sense of distrust between the Cassandra community and the ASF. All that being said, I'm not particularly worried about Cassandra's future. I was sad to see Jonathan Ellis leave as the chair person, but hearing that Nate McCall was stepping into that position put a lot of my concerns at ease. I hope that the Datastax folks know that the community appreciates all that they have contributed to the open source Cassandra project, even if the ASF doesn't. [1]: https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/72a884fa8f35cbed23135c8c771da06076d87a5a20ff5a7cd5d24001@%3Cdev.cassandra.apache.org%3E https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/72a884fa8f35cbed23135c8... [2]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg09143.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg0914... [3]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg10037.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg1003... [4]: http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg10020.html http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@cassandra.apache.org/msg1002...

jcoffland 10y ago

Yes Open-Source projects can have political issues too. I don't see how this is any different than the politics of closed source software. Why the author wants to disparage Open-Source is beyond me.

johan_larson 10y ago

Sharing is hard. Nobody making money can work. Many people making money can work. Just one party making money, that's a mofo. Full disclosure: I work for Couchbase, and our management tends to describe DataStax as a key competitor.

winteriscoming 10y ago

I haven't followed this specific Datastax vs ASF discussion, but have seen similar battles played out in recent years between some popular projects and ASF and even ESF (Eclipse foundation vs Vert.x project for example) Does anyone here know what value do these foundations bring to projects, in this day of cloud hosting/computing that make these foundations worth for the projects?