5 ms·

Meh. The website says "Please cite", not "you must cite". To derail this a bit further, I would actually be very interested in an academic version of the AGPL -

Meh. The website says "Please cite", not "you must cite". To derail this a bit further, I would actually be very interested in an academic version of the AGPL - that is, a proper license that defines "publication of data produced by the work" as "distribution of the work", meaning that if someone uses the software to produce some data and then publishes said data, they also must publish (or make available on request) all changes made to the software. Unfortunately, the very strict definition in the AGPL and the interlinking between it and the GPL make this difficult to add-on later. And thus we are stuck with "please cite this so I can justify working on it, please?" instead of "You must cite this if you want to use it". Honestly, I also don’t see how this request isn’t scalable, could you expand on that?

CJefferson 10y ago
The software prints: If you pay 10000 EUR you should feel free to use GNU Parallel without citing. That sounds to me like cite or you will be taken to court for not citing. If I cite parallel, should I cite Perl? C library? Linux kernel? Systemd?
- claudius 10y ago
  I would make a distinction between “scientific software” and “system software”. The latter is commonly used for all sorts of things and could in principle easily be replaced. The former is specifically adapted to produce the results at hand and the results (and only the results, not for example the typesetting of the paper) depend crucially on this software and its correctness. Examples of the latter are e.g. Linux, libc, systemd etc.: All things used during production of the results, but not aimed at producing such results. The former are e.g. Matlab, the Intel MKL, ALPS, TensorFlow or similar tools and suites. A bug in the MKL may make your results wrong, while a but in the kernel will most likely just crash everything. In my experience, scientific results depend on a handful of software packets in such a way, and adding five-or-so citations to a paper is certainly no big deal and would make reproducing the results much easier. I have no idea where GNU parallel sits there, it probably depends on how you use it – do you schedule your Monte Carlo runs with it or just rescale pictures for the website? Admittedly, it is a very grey area, but I don’t consider a request for citation unreasonable.
- vacri 10y ago
  It sounds more to my like it's telling me how to feel. "Should feel" and "are" are not synonymous.
mikegerwitz 10y ago
The output of a program isn't a derivative work, so this can't be enforced with a copyright license; you'd need something else. Unless you make it a derivative work by outputting copyrighted material, but that'd be difficult with raw data. Anyway: there's a wonderfully specific answer to this in the FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#RequireCitation https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#RequireCitation https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLOutput https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLOutput
- claudius 10y ago
  I read this, but I honestly don’t understand it. Isn’t a license essentially a contract between the licensor and the licensee? And shouldn’t it hence be possible to write such a clause into a license? After all, lots of things are put into licenses which do not cover derivative works (e.g. conditional patent grants)? I understand that I cannot add this to the GPL (due to the specific clauses of the GPL) and that RMS might not consider the resulting software free (though it would probably pass all of Debian’s freedom guidelines, for example), but it should be possible to have such a license in general?
  - mikegerwitz 10y ago
    The issue with adding such a restriction to the license is that it has to work within the domain of Copyright. Assuming The author of foo holds copyright on foo, but not to the output _generated_ by foo---it's an original work (assuming that foo doesn't output anything that its author does actually hold a copyright on). I guess a good example would be a Madlib-style program, where it asks you questions and fills in the blanks in a story, often resulting in something highly amusing. The original story containing the blanks is copyrighted. The output of this program would then be a derivative work, because the original story has been modified. But consider that the program took a story of your own (the data its processing) and output statistics, such as the word count, frequency of certain words, grammar errors, etc. This is not a derivative work. Similarly, if GNU Parallel is being used to process your input, its output isn't a derivative work. With that said, you can have a separate EULA-type thing---which is _outside_ the domain of copyright---that imposes these terms. But that is incompatible with the terms of the GPL.
emmelaich 10y ago
Disabling the notice requires you to type 'will cite'. In other words, it effectively requires me to LIE. No thanks.

CJefferson 10y ago

The software prints: If you pay 10000 EUR you should feel free to use GNU Parallel without citing. That sounds to me like cite or you will be taken to court for not citing. If I cite parallel, should I cite Perl? C library? Linux kernel? Systemd?

claudius 10y ago
I would make a distinction between “scientific software” and “system software”. The latter is commonly used for all sorts of things and could in principle easily be replaced. The former is specifically adapted to produce the results at hand and the results (and only the results, not for example the typesetting of the paper) depend crucially on this software and its correctness. Examples of the latter are e.g. Linux, libc, systemd etc.: All things used during production of the results, but not aimed at producing such results. The former are e.g. Matlab, the Intel MKL, ALPS, TensorFlow or similar tools and suites. A bug in the MKL may make your results wrong, while a but in the kernel will most likely just crash everything. In my experience, scientific results depend on a handful of software packets in such a way, and adding five-or-so citations to a paper is certainly no big deal and would make reproducing the results much easier. I have no idea where GNU parallel sits there, it probably depends on how you use it – do you schedule your Monte Carlo runs with it or just rescale pictures for the website? Admittedly, it is a very grey area, but I don’t consider a request for citation unreasonable.
vacri 10y ago
It sounds more to my like it's telling me how to feel. "Should feel" and "are" are not synonymous.

mikegerwitz 10y ago

The output of a program isn't a derivative work, so this can't be enforced with a copyright license; you'd need something else. Unless you make it a derivative work by outputting copyrighted material, but that'd be difficult with raw data. Anyway: there's a wonderfully specific answer to this in the FAQ: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#RequireCitation https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#RequireCitation https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLOutput https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#GPLOutput

claudius 10y ago
I read this, but I honestly don’t understand it. Isn’t a license essentially a contract between the licensor and the licensee? And shouldn’t it hence be possible to write such a clause into a license? After all, lots of things are put into licenses which do not cover derivative works (e.g. conditional patent grants)? I understand that I cannot add this to the GPL (due to the specific clauses of the GPL) and that RMS might not consider the resulting software free (though it would probably pass all of Debian’s freedom guidelines, for example), but it should be possible to have such a license in general?
- mikegerwitz 10y ago
  The issue with adding such a restriction to the license is that it has to work within the domain of Copyright. Assuming The author of foo holds copyright on foo, but not to the output _generated_ by foo---it's an original work (assuming that foo doesn't output anything that its author does actually hold a copyright on). I guess a good example would be a Madlib-style program, where it asks you questions and fills in the blanks in a story, often resulting in something highly amusing. The original story containing the blanks is copyrighted. The output of this program would then be a derivative work, because the original story has been modified. But consider that the program took a story of your own (the data its processing) and output statistics, such as the word count, frequency of certain words, grammar errors, etc. This is not a derivative work. Similarly, if GNU Parallel is being used to process your input, its output isn't a derivative work. With that said, you can have a separate EULA-type thing---which is _outside_ the domain of copyright---that imposes these terms. But that is incompatible with the terms of the GPL.

emmelaich 10y ago

Disabling the notice requires you to type 'will cite'. In other words, it effectively requires me to LIE. No thanks.