5 ms·

The "we didn't know" bit is eerily familiar and I will not expand. The other thing that came to mind was the 1971 Stanford Experiment (Zimbardo). It is ironical

The "we didn't know" bit is eerily familiar and I will not expand. The other thing that came to mind was the 1971 Stanford Experiment (Zimbardo). It is ironical that this experiment would not be able to take place today, out of "ethical" considerations but that its real-life version is publicly funded and tacitly approved. All this is extremely frightening...

maxerickson 10y ago
I think people still don't really know. Forced sterilization was routine in parts of the US up until the 1970s (and widespread prior to WWII). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Unite...
- dom0 10y ago
  Interestingly the story of A. Turing usually ends with WWII, and doesn't go on to tell that the state he did so much for forcedly sterilized him, driving him into suicide.
rz2k 10y ago
I get the vague impression that there was some sort of unspoken deal not to prosecute the people who ordered torture and the people who followed those unlawful orders for the sake of reconciliation between sides of culture wars. How could we have prosecuted the torturers but not the people giving the orders? Or, how could we prosecute the former vice president, but not the former commander in chief? Even though we are part of treaties that promise we will not torture, practical politics seems to be more powerful than the rule of law, and there would have had to be a much more overwhelming mandate. Instead, it seems like we have forgiven people for commandeering the power we gave them for unlawful uses from one perspective[1], but the other perspective is that they did not do something wrong. Based on the rhetoric of this campaign it seems like timidity, instead of leading to some sort of reconciliation, has lead to the normalization of torture. Now even low caliber network television shows such as 24 and Madame Secretary have protagonists casually carrying out or ordering torture without the implicit condemnation that would have been written into the plot 20 years ago. [1] Forgiving the breach of trust for misusing power you gave someone is of course different than the type of forgiveness actual victims could grant.
- mtgx 10y ago
  Unspoken deal? Obama literally said we "should look forward not backwards" to Bush's crimes as soon as he got elected. And now Trump may hire some of the same worst of the worst people that Bush hired, and went unpunished. History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme, especially when people refuse to condemn certain past actions and "move forward" as if nothing happened. And then get surprised that those same actions are done again. This is one of the best articles I've read post-election. I do hope this time America actually does wake-up and look itself in the mirror. It's about time it did that. https://medium.com/@omarkamel/im-arab-and-many-of-us-are-glad-that-trump-won-c98e1c6ae891 https://medium.com/@omarkamel/im-arab-and-many-of-us-are-gla... I've also said before that Americans don't really get what mass surveillance is about, and are thus allowing it to happen and expand under their "favorite president" because they've never really had to suffer for it, as some eastern European countries have. Well, now, they may get that opportunity, and even some staunch surveillance defenders are getting freaked out about it. Good luck. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161111/00230136015/long-time-mass-surveillance-defenders-freak-out-now-that-trump-will-have-control.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161111/00230136015/long-...
  - wuschel 10y ago
    Let's not forget that Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for ...well, for not being Bush? A prize from a war profiteur in explosives and munitions to a war monger of drones. So many things are failing, sometimes I think we are a hopeless race. But fortunately, there are decent people around - and that gives me hope.
  - roywiggins 10y ago
    I'm not saying Obama's look-forward-not-backward schtick was the moral decision, and I can't really defend it on moral grounds at all, so I won't. But, the notion of a new president coming in and immediately prosecuting members of the previous administration suddenly sounds a lot scarier when the next president has no moral compass and has openly run on the platform of locking up his political enemies. That said, the architects of the Bush torture program deserve to rot in jail.

maxerickson 10y ago

I think people still don't really know. Forced sterilization was routine in parts of the US up until the 1970s (and widespread prior to WWII). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Unite...

dom0 10y ago
Interestingly the story of A. Turing usually ends with WWII, and doesn't go on to tell that the state he did so much for forcedly sterilized him, driving him into suicide.

rz2k 10y ago

I get the vague impression that there was some sort of unspoken deal not to prosecute the people who ordered torture and the people who followed those unlawful orders for the sake of reconciliation between sides of culture wars. How could we have prosecuted the torturers but not the people giving the orders? Or, how could we prosecute the former vice president, but not the former commander in chief? Even though we are part of treaties that promise we will not torture, practical politics seems to be more powerful than the rule of law, and there would have had to be a much more overwhelming mandate. Instead, it seems like we have forgiven people for commandeering the power we gave them for unlawful uses from one perspective[1], but the other perspective is that they did not do something wrong. Based on the rhetoric of this campaign it seems like timidity, instead of leading to some sort of reconciliation, has lead to the normalization of torture. Now even low caliber network television shows such as 24 and Madame Secretary have protagonists casually carrying out or ordering torture without the implicit condemnation that would have been written into the plot 20 years ago. [1] Forgiving the breach of trust for misusing power you gave someone is of course different than the type of forgiveness actual victims could grant.

mtgx 10y ago
Unspoken deal? Obama literally said we "should look forward not backwards" to Bush's crimes as soon as he got elected. And now Trump may hire some of the same worst of the worst people that Bush hired, and went unpunished. History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme, especially when people refuse to condemn certain past actions and "move forward" as if nothing happened. And then get surprised that those same actions are done again. This is one of the best articles I've read post-election. I do hope this time America actually does wake-up and look itself in the mirror. It's about time it did that. https://medium.com/@omarkamel/im-arab-and-many-of-us-are-glad-that-trump-won-c98e1c6ae891 https://medium.com/@omarkamel/im-arab-and-many-of-us-are-gla... I've also said before that Americans don't really get what mass surveillance is about, and are thus allowing it to happen and expand under their "favorite president" because they've never really had to suffer for it, as some eastern European countries have. Well, now, they may get that opportunity, and even some staunch surveillance defenders are getting freaked out about it. Good luck. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161111/00230136015/long-time-mass-surveillance-defenders-freak-out-now-that-trump-will-have-control.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20161111/00230136015/long-...
- wuschel 10y ago
  Let's not forget that Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize for ...well, for not being Bush? A prize from a war profiteur in explosives and munitions to a war monger of drones. So many things are failing, sometimes I think we are a hopeless race. But fortunately, there are decent people around - and that gives me hope.
- roywiggins 10y ago
  I'm not saying Obama's look-forward-not-backward schtick was the moral decision, and I can't really defend it on moral grounds at all, so I won't. But, the notion of a new president coming in and immediately prosecuting members of the previous administration suddenly sounds a lot scarier when the next president has no moral compass and has openly run on the platform of locking up his political enemies. That said, the architects of the Bush torture program deserve to rot in jail.