4 ms·

Americans are whistling down to the concentration camps.

by warsaw 10y ago

cmdrfred 10y ago
And we have been for a very long time. Quite frankly there isn't even a viable way to vote against it anymore.
- koverstreet 10y ago
  There was, back during the democratic primary. But we blew that one.
  - jeff_petersen 10y ago
    Were you going to vote for the guy who later endorsed the corporate-owned neoconservative warhawk? Because, given that, it seems like his principles weren't worth very much.
    - socialist_coder 10y ago
      Such a bad and tired argument. He was doing it to try and stop Trump from getting elected. As a hardcore Sanders supporter, I am behind that decision 100%.
      - jeff_petersen 10y ago
        I fail to see how stopping Trump from winning is a palatable outcome if the alternate option is Clinton winning. She is diametrically opposed to just about every progressive position, I don't see how any progressive could support her in good conscience. Unless of course it's more important that the team you identify with wins than what the principles that team stands for are.
        socialist_coder 10y ago
        If you truly consider yourself a progressive, take a minute to really think rationally about the situation. Put aside your emotions for Sanders. I know it's hard, and it took me a long time to come to grips with the situation before I could do that. I was very close to voting for Trump because of how terrible I thought Clinton was. But, if you really think rationally about it, supporting Clinton is clearly the best option. Under Clinton you still get many progressive policy pushes - paid leave, higher minimum wage, protecting abortion, stopping Republican voter suppression, and most importantly, SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS! The supreme court nominations alone should be enough to convince you, and the rest is just icing on the cake. Not the mention, Trump supporters feel like they can be openly racist (which was my fear if Trump won, and sure enough, it has become a reality). So yes, Clinton is a great option when compared to Trump.
        jeff_petersen 10y ago
        > The supreme court nominations alone should be enough to convince you They did. I do not want Hillary Clinton appointing judges to the supreme court any more than I want Trump doing it. Again, Hillary is not a progressive, so I see no reason to believe that her justice picks would be. You haven't really made a convincing argument in her favor, you've essentially said "yes, she would have been an awful authoritarian who would continue and amplify the bad policies we already had, but at least she paid lip service to some inconsequential social wedge issues that serve as uniforms for my team!" edit: It's especially disappointing that Hillary didn't lose by an even wider margin. Perhaps if the Democrats got bitten hard enough by their failed strategy we could have a chance at some real reform in four years. Instead people like you rewarded their avarice and deceit, so we can expect things to continue like this.
        masonic 10y ago
        "...paid leave, higher minimum wage, protecting abortion, stopping Republican voter suppression..." When she was a Senator, she did absolutely nothing on any of those fronts (or immigration)... even when Democrats controlled the White House and Congress, including a filibuster-proof Senate majority.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - pessimizer 10y ago
      His only other alternative would have been to run on the Green ticket, and that probably wouldn't have worked out well for a number of reasons. As things shook out, he somehow ended up the de facto leader of a Democratic party that he hasn't even officially joined yet. If things had come out the other way, he would have pull for having brought his followers around and the chairmanship of a Senate committee. If he had been a failed Green party candidate, he would have been out of politics by now. As it was, his answers to specific questions about what he endorsed about Clinton were so carefully phrased that he sounded like Clinton talking about emails.
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    But we were told that we couldn't vote for him because he was unelectable. We had to vote for the candidate who had been hated for decades, and who coincidentally directly or indirectly employed at least half of the Democratic party apparatus. No matter, though. I'm sure that President Trump will be a wise and careful steward of his new surveillance network.
sctb 10y ago
We've already asked you to please comment substantively, and there's nothing here besides inflammatory allegory. So we have to ask again: please don't post if you have nothing to say.
hga 10y ago
Not those of us who've been buying guns, but primarily rifles, of military utility in ever greater numbers, starting in the George W. Bush administration.... And let me quote Alexander Solzhenitsyn in The GULAG Archipelago on the general question of "whistling" vs. resisting: And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria [Government limo] sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur — what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- masonic 10y ago
  "Not those of us who've been buying guns, but primarily rifles, of military utility in ever greater numbers, starting in the George W. Bush administration" Actually, gun ownership surged during the early Clinton administration in response to his party's push for gun bans and the "Brady Bill".
  - hga 10y ago
    I can well believe that, but as I remember the big surge started after 9/11, when we were told the only thing we could personally do was to shop (support the already crashing economy), i.e. that we were are our own. Quibble: our best numbers come from NICS checks, and they only started in 1998 based on 1993's Brady Bill. E.g. they capture sales of used guns, which the ATF otherwise doesn't have visibility into like they do with new stuff through Pittman Robertson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Fede...). And even that data is getting iffier as more and more people get concealed carry licenses, which generally allow you to skip the NICS check. But, yeah, pretty much every effort, mooted or actual, at gun control prompts us ornery gun owners to resist, generally by buying some of what's under fire, so to speak.

Americans are whistling down to the concentration camps.

by warsaw 10y ago

Americans are whistling down to the concentration camps.

cmdrfred 10y ago

And we have been for a very long time. Quite frankly there isn't even a viable way to vote against it anymore.

koverstreet 10y ago
There was, back during the democratic primary. But we blew that one.
- jeff_petersen 10y ago
  Were you going to vote for the guy who later endorsed the corporate-owned neoconservative warhawk? Because, given that, it seems like his principles weren't worth very much.
  - socialist_coder 10y ago
    Such a bad and tired argument. He was doing it to try and stop Trump from getting elected. As a hardcore Sanders supporter, I am behind that decision 100%.
    - jeff_petersen 10y ago
      I fail to see how stopping Trump from winning is a palatable outcome if the alternate option is Clinton winning. She is diametrically opposed to just about every progressive position, I don't see how any progressive could support her in good conscience. Unless of course it's more important that the team you identify with wins than what the principles that team stands for are.
      - socialist_coder 10y ago
        If you truly consider yourself a progressive, take a minute to really think rationally about the situation. Put aside your emotions for Sanders. I know it's hard, and it took me a long time to come to grips with the situation before I could do that. I was very close to voting for Trump because of how terrible I thought Clinton was. But, if you really think rationally about it, supporting Clinton is clearly the best option. Under Clinton you still get many progressive policy pushes - paid leave, higher minimum wage, protecting abortion, stopping Republican voter suppression, and most importantly, SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS! The supreme court nominations alone should be enough to convince you, and the rest is just icing on the cake. Not the mention, Trump supporters feel like they can be openly racist (which was my fear if Trump won, and sure enough, it has become a reality). So yes, Clinton is a great option when compared to Trump.
        jeff_petersen 10y ago
        > The supreme court nominations alone should be enough to convince you They did. I do not want Hillary Clinton appointing judges to the supreme court any more than I want Trump doing it. Again, Hillary is not a progressive, so I see no reason to believe that her justice picks would be. You haven't really made a convincing argument in her favor, you've essentially said "yes, she would have been an awful authoritarian who would continue and amplify the bad policies we already had, but at least she paid lip service to some inconsequential social wedge issues that serve as uniforms for my team!" edit: It's especially disappointing that Hillary didn't lose by an even wider margin. Perhaps if the Democrats got bitten hard enough by their failed strategy we could have a chance at some real reform in four years. Instead people like you rewarded their avarice and deceit, so we can expect things to continue like this.
        masonic 10y ago
        "...paid leave, higher minimum wage, protecting abortion, stopping Republican voter suppression..." When she was a Senator, she did absolutely nothing on any of those fronts (or immigration)... even when Democrats controlled the White House and Congress, including a filibuster-proof Senate majority.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    His only other alternative would have been to run on the Green ticket, and that probably wouldn't have worked out well for a number of reasons. As things shook out, he somehow ended up the de facto leader of a Democratic party that he hasn't even officially joined yet. If things had come out the other way, he would have pull for having brought his followers around and the chairmanship of a Senate committee. If he had been a failed Green party candidate, he would have been out of politics by now. As it was, his answers to specific questions about what he endorsed about Clinton were so carefully phrased that he sounded like Clinton talking about emails.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  But we were told that we couldn't vote for him because he was unelectable. We had to vote for the candidate who had been hated for decades, and who coincidentally directly or indirectly employed at least half of the Democratic party apparatus. No matter, though. I'm sure that President Trump will be a wise and careful steward of his new surveillance network.

sctb 10y ago

We've already asked you to please comment substantively, and there's nothing here besides inflammatory allegory. So we have to ask again: please don't post if you have nothing to say.

hga 10y ago

Not those of us who've been buying guns, but primarily rifles, of military utility in ever greater numbers, starting in the George W. Bush administration.... And let me quote Alexander Solzhenitsyn in The GULAG Archipelago on the general question of "whistling" vs. resisting: And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria [Government limo] sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur — what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
masonic 10y ago
"Not those of us who've been buying guns, but primarily rifles, of military utility in ever greater numbers, starting in the George W. Bush administration" Actually, gun ownership surged during the early Clinton administration in response to his party's push for gun bans and the "Brady Bill".
- hga 10y ago
  I can well believe that, but as I remember the big surge started after 9/11, when we were told the only thing we could personally do was to shop (support the already crashing economy), i.e. that we were are our own. Quibble: our best numbers come from NICS checks, and they only started in 1998 based on 1993's Brady Bill. E.g. they capture sales of used guns, which the ATF otherwise doesn't have visibility into like they do with new stuff through Pittman Robertson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Fede...). And even that data is getting iffier as more and more people get concealed carry licenses, which generally allow you to skip the NICS check. But, yeah, pretty much every effort, mooted or actual, at gun control prompts us ornery gun owners to resist, generally by buying some of what's under fire, so to speak.