3 ms·

Arguments shouldn't be disqualified based on their source alone, but at the same time they shouldn't be accepted just because they appear academically rigorous,

by abalone 10y ago

Arguments shouldn't be disqualified based on their source alone, but at the same time they shouldn't be accepted just because they appear academically rigorous, have charts, etc. This comes from Reason which is a right-wing think tank funded by the Koch brothers and Exxon Mobil, among others. So, definitely some close examination is needed before accepting any of their conclusions. Have any of us taken a close look at the arguments contained within? I noticed that on page 44 where it finally gets into the meat of the argument in environmental impacts, it actually noted that given the projections of San Francisco's office of the comptroller, the ban actually has positive effects. Then it constructs its own "scenario 2" under which is would have negative effects. And then as far as I can see it never argues which scenario is valid! It just jumps to a conclusion later on (p56) that things are "uncertain" so a ban is therefore "irrational". That just smacks of propaganda draped in the clothes of academia. For some counter arguments see: http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/10/08/californias-plastic-bag-ban-myths-and-facts/201064 http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/10/08/californias-plas...

BobCat 10y ago
> For some counter arguments see: Personal experience - every single bag I get from the grocery store is used again to dispose of garbage. Doesn't everyone do that? Making me buy garbage bags is much more wasteful.
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  Not everyone does that.
- arawde 10y ago
  I do the same thing, but... grocery store bags are pretty small. I would imagine you would need to use a number of grocery store bags to hold the equivalent amount of a black drawstring bag most people use. I also use a reusable bag for most my grocery shopping. I know a number of people who use cloth bags. I do know there are programs which seek to collect plastic bags and recycle them, but I've never actually looked into what they are being used for. If you feel like your contribution of recycling grocery store bags is meaningful, I don't think you should stop.
- prostoalex 10y ago
  Yep, that's by far most recyclable item in the house. The usage balloons with various (mostly unpleasant) cases such as diapered baby, sick cat or just plain love for French cheeses. I guess it's far more enviromentally friendly to use an entire 13 gallon trash bag per each of those incidents.
  - abalone 10y ago
    > I guess it's far more environmentally friendly to use an entire 13 gallon trash bag per each of those incidents. That's an absurd assumption. You can purchase a small amount of ziploc style bags for such cases, which are right-sized and thus less wasteful and also are better suited for the task as they have a proper seal.
    - prostoalex 10y ago
      One could, but Ziploc bag with a slider seal, 15c a bag https://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Slider-Storage-Bags-Count/dp/B01FXMDA2O/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1479050245&sr=8-2&keywords=Ziploc+bags https://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Slider-Storage-Bags-Count/dp/B... Most common trash bag, 11c a bag https://www.amazon.com/Kirkland-Signature-Drawstring-Kitchen-Trash/dp/B001UB44SM/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1479050278&sr=8-5&keywords=Trash%2Bbags&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Kirkland-Signature-Drawstring-Kitchen... And as you correctly noted, ZipLoc bags are not a staple of most households, one needs to remember to purchase them. Trash bags are in a "must have" league with toilet paper and tooth paste.
- abalone 10y ago
  That's anecdotal. Please see the extensively sourced section in the article you cited titled FACT: Large Amounts Of Plastic Bags Aren't Easily Reused Or Recycled
- exodust 10y ago
  Those grocery bags from the store take up to 1000 years to degrade in landfill. Not using them for your home garbage means you could look for biodegradable or compostable plastic bags. Or use an actual compost bin and use less garbage bags as a result. If the grocery store uses bio-bags then that's a win for the environment. It's all about putting pressure on those nasty 1000 year bags until we see change for the better.
pygy_ 10y ago
Many points are fishy. After reading the start of part 2 (which is supposed to present objective information about the impact) - Quibbling over whether building them consumes oil or natural gas. - Badly reporting other reports (5% of bags are littered vs bags make 5% of all litter). It looks like neither figures are correct, anyway, which is the point the paper wants to make, but basic proofreading should have caught it. - They say that the fact they only make 1% of the matter clogging storm drains makes them unimportant, ignoring their mechanical properties (their robustness and large surface make them retain other debris) I stopped reading at that point.

by abalone 10y ago

BobCat 10y ago

> For some counter arguments see: Personal experience - every single bag I get from the grocery store is used again to dispose of garbage. Doesn't everyone do that? Making me buy garbage bags is much more wasteful.

dwaltrip 10y ago
Not everyone does that.
arawde 10y ago
I do the same thing, but... grocery store bags are pretty small. I would imagine you would need to use a number of grocery store bags to hold the equivalent amount of a black drawstring bag most people use. I also use a reusable bag for most my grocery shopping. I know a number of people who use cloth bags. I do know there are programs which seek to collect plastic bags and recycle them, but I've never actually looked into what they are being used for. If you feel like your contribution of recycling grocery store bags is meaningful, I don't think you should stop.
prostoalex 10y ago
Yep, that's by far most recyclable item in the house. The usage balloons with various (mostly unpleasant) cases such as diapered baby, sick cat or just plain love for French cheeses. I guess it's far more enviromentally friendly to use an entire 13 gallon trash bag per each of those incidents.
- abalone 10y ago
  > I guess it's far more environmentally friendly to use an entire 13 gallon trash bag per each of those incidents. That's an absurd assumption. You can purchase a small amount of ziploc style bags for such cases, which are right-sized and thus less wasteful and also are better suited for the task as they have a proper seal.
  - prostoalex 10y ago
    One could, but Ziploc bag with a slider seal, 15c a bag https://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Slider-Storage-Bags-Count/dp/B01FXMDA2O/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1479050245&sr=8-2&keywords=Ziploc+bags https://www.amazon.com/Ziploc-Slider-Storage-Bags-Count/dp/B... Most common trash bag, 11c a bag https://www.amazon.com/Kirkland-Signature-Drawstring-Kitchen-Trash/dp/B001UB44SM/ref=sr_1_5_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1479050278&sr=8-5&keywords=Trash%2Bbags&th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Kirkland-Signature-Drawstring-Kitchen... And as you correctly noted, ZipLoc bags are not a staple of most households, one needs to remember to purchase them. Trash bags are in a "must have" league with toilet paper and tooth paste.
abalone 10y ago
That's anecdotal. Please see the extensively sourced section in the article you cited titled FACT: Large Amounts Of Plastic Bags Aren't Easily Reused Or Recycled
exodust 10y ago
Those grocery bags from the store take up to 1000 years to degrade in landfill. Not using them for your home garbage means you could look for biodegradable or compostable plastic bags. Or use an actual compost bin and use less garbage bags as a result. If the grocery store uses bio-bags then that's a win for the environment. It's all about putting pressure on those nasty 1000 year bags until we see change for the better.

pygy_ 10y ago

Many points are fishy. After reading the start of part 2 (which is supposed to present objective information about the impact) - Quibbling over whether building them consumes oil or natural gas. - Badly reporting other reports (5% of bags are littered vs bags make 5% of all litter). It looks like neither figures are correct, anyway, which is the point the paper wants to make, but basic proofreading should have caught it. - They say that the fact they only make 1% of the matter clogging storm drains makes them unimportant, ignoring their mechanical properties (their robustness and large surface make them retain other debris) I stopped reading at that point.