13 ms·

A river of lost souls runs through western Colorado

99 points by wormold 10y ago

peterwwillis 10y ago
So women are now committing suicide at the same rate as men?
- DanBC 10y ago
  No. Men are still dying more than women. But women attempt suicide more often than men. And women have started using more lethal means than they used to. And the combination - more suicide attempts, more lethal methods, is worrying.
  - xherberta 10y ago
    Right. The way I look at this, suicide attempts are just the tail, the extreme cases -- even more people are not quite that desperate, are suffering at a level that's only almost unbearable.
- niels_olson 10y ago
  No, men die of suicide at 3.5x the rate of women. But there have been similar articles about the general trend of increasing suicide rates, and the highest rate being among white men. Whenever there's a gender or race break-out, there's opportunity for specific articles as people dig deeper into the data and start finding out the rates for other sub-populations.
ChuckMcM 10y ago
"nearly 1 in 4 white women ages 50 to 64 is taking an antidepressant, according to federal health officials." This is the saddest thing. My wife remarked that there was a weird sense of expectancy that if you were a white female of middle age you were expected by your peers to be taking anti-depressants.
- douche 10y ago
  Out of the other 3 in 4, how many are self-medicating with something else? Coincidently, my mother has three sisters, and all of them are in this age range. Two are on antidepressants. Two of them drink a bottle or two of wine a day. There is some overlap there. Mother's little helper...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
DanBC 10y ago
> according to a Washington Post analysis of federal health data. I wish they'd released this.
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  Ask them to. EDIT: I just emailed the article author asking if they'd release the data in a Github repo [1]. Default to action. [1] https://github.com/washingtonpost https://github.com/washingtonpost
  - bnjms 10y ago
    [1]. Default to action. There is a maxim worth adopting.
    - clarry 10y ago
      That is one way to end up with too much to do.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - godDLL 10y ago
        Or exactly the other way around.
      - bnjms 10y ago
        Maybe depending on the person and which side they come from. Personally I come from the side of defaulting to doing nothing. Deciding against action is easy to me. Defaulting to action means avoiding the doldrums of apathy. I imagine more are like me than otherwise.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- ikeboy 10y ago
  I'm curious how significant this is. The article sounds like it might be abuse of subgroup analysis as in https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/ i.e. check every state, check a dozen demographics in each state, and one of those is going to have higher suicide rates than the rest. Doesn't mean it's some feature of that demographic instead of random chance.
zepto 10y ago
Depression is not caused by a deficiency of medications, but by a deficiency of hope, so medications cannot cure it.
- savanaly 10y ago
  Source.
  - zenkat 10y ago
    Experience.
  - zepto 10y ago
    If you can provide a source showing either that a deficiency of medication is the cause of depression, or that medications do cure depression, then I will provide a source.
    - idle_processor 10y ago
      You made a claim: "medications cannot cure [depression]." The burden of proof is with you, not with savanaly.
      - zepto 10y ago
        Actually no, the burden of proof is not with me. I am claiming that something doesn't exist - I.e. A medication that cures depression. This is similar to saying 'there are no unicorns'. Neither statement can be proven by citation since there is always the possibility that a unicorn (or a medication that cures depression) has been overlooked. If there is such a medication, it should be trivial for savanaly to point it out.
        ashleypt 10y ago
        I think a lot of people are getting confused about 'cure' vs 'management.' In my case it helped with neither. SSRIs only /treat/ (not cure) a deficiency of serotonin, which for some people is all they need. I think some people have a strong genetic predisposition to depression, however that doesn't mean "therefore medication." But depression comes in a lot more forms than just a simple serotonin deficiency, it's also thought that dopamine and norepinephrine play important roles. Personally, antidepressants never helped me, though a combination of physical exercise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_physical_exercise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_phy... - seriously read that, I used to think exercise was just about living longer and being "healthy" in some abstract sense, which were the opposite of what I wanted at the time) and meditation has helped. It hasn't made me happier but I think it's effectively treated my depression. When someone doesn't have the ability to "lift" themselves out of their depression, there isn't suddenly a binary "either they need an SSRI/SNRI or RIP tough luck". Some people have hypothyroidism (this was my case) and no amount of psychoactive drugs is going to help with that because the neurotransmitters aren't even being manufactured in the first place and even if they were you'd barely have the energy to utilize them. Other people just don't respond to SSRIs but would still respond to the massive boost of not just serotonin but dopamine and norepinephrine caused by daily (especially aerobic or HIIT) exercise (it also rewires the reward centers and dozens of other things, read that article). Some people might have bottled up emotions or physical influences increasing their cortisol - high cortisol can make you feel depressed too. Meditating lowers that and brings out your emotions so you can cry if needed (which FURTHER decreases cortisol). That was kind of the last component for me. Some depressed people need someone to not just give up after trying an SSRI but actively get them doing the lifestyle changes, whether that's self-applied in CBT as in Feeling Good, exercise, meditation, getting out more, whatever. Like they seriously need to be guided to do it in real time, they can't just be expected to even remember to do it. Also blood work and hormone tests are simple to do - it might just be a lack of micronutrients or hyper/hypothyroidism (especially in this age group of middle aged women. personally I'm 20f)
soared 10y ago
Worth discussing: Positive association between altitude and suicide https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/
- czbond 10y ago
  Really interesting - thanks for posting.
cowardlydragon 10y ago
Women aren't the demographic with a suicide problem in that age range... But my compassion is gone after the election.
- throwanem 10y ago
  If all it takes to destroy your compassion is losing an election, you never cared to begin with. You only claimed you did.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- DanBC 10y ago
  Risk of death by suicide is much higher in that group of women than it is in younger women. Read the fucking CDC numbers.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    One suspects GP was pointing out that late-middle-age men die by suicide more often than late-middle-age women.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      ...but women in that age group have more suicidal thoughts, and have more suicidal behaviour (planning, preparation), and have more suicide attempts than men. If women switch to more lethal methods - which is what this article says is happening - they'll soon overtake men in numbers of deaths, especially in this age group.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        It really would be news, if any cohort of women had a higher suicide rate than the same cohort of men. That isn't the case, however, and men's rates are ticking up just like women's. TFA offered no evidence for the "more lethal methods" claim.
xherberta 10y ago
“It’s really hard to withdraw from antidepressants,” said New York psychiatrist and pharmacology expert Julie Holland. In some cases, “people feel like cold water is running down their spine. They can feel their brain sloshing around, or electric zaps in their head.” Dang. If it's true as claimed that medications only help half the time, this seems like a strong encouragement to try things like exercise, yoga, and lifestyle changes before going the medication route. Unless you're so depressed you honestly can't make those changes... as commenters have mentioned, sometimes medications are absolutely helpful, needed, and life-saving. I've heard of cases where being on a medication just for a short time helped people break out of a rut. If you're getting a prescription, it seems worthwhile to ask docs for options that are less problematic to get off of.
- ianai 10y ago
  It can be chicken and egg. I imagine that for many personal lifestyle changes are more difficult than popping a pill. Once they start to feel the benefits of medication then doing things out of the norm may come easier. In my own anecdote, it was over the counter stuff like St John's Wort and valerian that helped me do the life change stuff. Also, no one lives in a vacuum. If your husband/wife and kids are all used to you not doing things like yoga, exercise, and whatever else they may subtly make comments or behaviors that make lifestyle change difficult to near impossible.
  - fapjacks 10y ago
    For me, as someone that's been through it, and as someone that other people in my group of friends come to for help, the thing about exercise, cleanliness, and diet is that you're right, it is a hard lifestyle change. For most people. But I notice that almost everyone gets to a point when they hit their own personal rock-bottom, and they're willing to try anything. One of my best friends said something similar when we were talking about his wife, who suffers from PTSD and bouts of depression. He said she wouldn't want to try it because she is stuck in bed all day. And I told him to tell her that the change will be almost immediate, and it will keep up as long as she keeps it up. She got out of bed. Maybe some people don't want to change. But in the pits of despair that I have been in, and my friends have been in, people are willing to do almost anything to make the pain go away. Exercise, cleanliness and diet are not cures for everyone, but they do help, and they help immediately, for long enough to make it to your doctor's appointment. For some reason, I get pushback from people on the internet about this, but it works. The only cure for this is time, and that's just an unfortunate fact. But when people are told those things make positive changes immediately, almost everyone gets out of bed or off the couch to try it. It all comes down to whether or not the person wants the pain to go away. If they do, they'll make the change, even temporarily.
icantdrive55 10y ago
The title is cute, but I guess it's good to get people talking about mental illness. I think we all know the reason Americans are so misserable. We are brought up thinking we can do anything, if we work hard enough. Most of us were brought up by parents who lived in an era where that was more true. The economy is terrible. (Sorry folks, but just last month the unemployment figure that calculates the number of people who can work, but just stopped looking for working doubled from a year ago for the same month. We all know people who stay at home, or are isolated. Just kinda getting by?) Don't get me started on Globalism. That is the one reason he was elected. We all knew something wasen't right, but he was the first public person to yell it. Media, and even societal norms(family expectations) keep telling us to "get it together". Turn on any t.v. show and it's about financial success, or looks. Men are just expected to make money. Women have the added burden of making it gracefully; making it while still looking great. Sorry women, I have seen how you judge other women. For the most part you can be nasty. My ex was attractive, and very naturally thin. She always had one woman at work who gave her a hard time. And they way men objectify women is just wrong. It's become so common place, it seems like it's acceptable? She pretty, so she a good person? I don't get it. Media never lets up on being beautiful, and desirable. We are living in a superficial era. It's been that way for awhile, but it's just gotten worse. What's the first question the average Dinkleberry asks someone when they meet, "What do you do?". It's the American equalevent of saying hello. What--do--you--do? I didn't like it 20 years ago when it was basically yelled in a bar, but now it's everwhere. Personally, I don't judge a person on WTD. Got a little off track. Veterans come home from duty, and expect a decent job. These jobs don't exist, or are hard to obtain. Some have understanding families. Some actually get some soul crushing help from "entitlement programs". (Before you say anything--apply for Food Stamps, medi-cal(yes, I know veterans administration "takes care" of them), or section 8 housing. It's a ego smashing experience.) I don't want to let up on the American expectation problem: Men: In good shape. Financially independent. A promising job, or potential to obtain a promising job. Kida handsome. Women: Kinda the same, but more emphasis is put on appearance. Plus--both are are just expected to be good all knowing parents. O.k.-- Since we are all expected to be some '50's version of success, we work hard. Some spend a lot of time in school and find success. Some get lucky. Some are born into it. Many people are just having a hard time. Many people are having a very hard time--on so many levels. Many people have a mental illness pop up. We rely on Psychologists, and Medical Doctors to help. They, for the most part, have failed spectacularly. Psychiatrits were duped into beliving these drugs work 50% of the time. Actually, every Psychiatrist I have listen too told me around 2/3's of the time. The latest drug I looked in was 62% over placebo. I belive that was Abilify. The placebo number is always high in these dubious studies. Personally, as someone who has been on at least 10 different drugs--(all paid for out of pocket); I along with a researcher named Irvin Kirsch belive most of these drugs are worthless. I did find certain, potentially addictive drugs, like clonezepam, and bupenorpine, helpful, but they have their problems. If I had a do over, I don't think I would have ever walked into a Psychologists/Psychiatrists office, but you have to do it. You need to find out for yourself. They seem to help a lot of my friends. I'm not qualified to comment on pharmacology. When I see people turning to street drugs to alleviate the misery; I kinda understand why. To me, it's never been worth the risks though. I have never felt that bad. I don't have any remedies--other than to buck the societal norms. Be more understanding? I do know we need to show understanding to those in pain. (physical & mental) We need to be more sympathetic. That whole, "walk a mile in a man's shoes." We need to lighten up. No one has a perfect life. We need to demand change in our social programs. We need to need to do something radical. Yesterday! (The FDA just sent out guidelines to every doctor in the United States concerning prescription guidelines of opiate based drugs. What I think the FDA missed was the core problem people become dependent on these drugs to begin with. They have misserable lives, and the drugs alleviate the missery for a few months. I have seen about 9 months of relief, and then a lifetime of trying to get off them. So yes, we need to curtail their use, but we can't let people in pain just suffer. It's a balancing act. I don't believe cancer should be the marker of wether someone is prescribed these addictive drugs.). Again, a bit off base. I'm tired of the huge number of suicides, and tired of just seeing more homeless monthly. I'm tired of seeing people in pain. I'm tired of my life. Just dissalusioned. This is not the greatest country anymore, on a lot of levels.
chmaynard 10y ago
Long ago, a cousin of mine and her husband raised their family in Durango. I think they all felt it was a great place to grow up, especially because they were passionate about exploring the wilderness around them. Attempting to settle there as an adult with only a high school education and build a life is another matter. Three of their four sons moved to the Front Range to go to college, raise their families, and pursue careers.
ChrisNorstrom 10y ago
http://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depression.html http://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depress... High altitutes can increase suicide and depression in certain people. While in others, they get a sense of feeling "at home".
- jhayward 10y ago
  Altitude apparently shows up both as an increase in depression and a decrease in ADHD. One researcher hypothesizes that altitude affects both serotonin and dopamine production, decreasing serotonin and increasing dopamine. https://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why https://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-i...
justinator 10y ago
I'm just going to throw this idea out - although I have no evidence either way, but: is there something in the water? Durango's water supply is the Animas, which is downriver from Silverton, and many old, abandoned mines and basically SuperFund sites (even though there's pressure to not call them that - or get that Federal $$$ to fix the problem, for fear of tourist dollars leaving). Are there known correlations between the types of acidic chemicals and heavy metals found in this type of polluted water and mental health? I ask because Durango is a beautiful, sunny place. It's hard not to be there in the summertime and not feel wonderful. Yes, in the winter, it's a little more clausterphobic, and you ARE in the middle of nowhere, but it doesn't have the depressive anxiety feeling of a place like Leadville used to have, when their main Moly mine closed down. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/12/opinions/pagel-animas-river-pollution/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/12/opinions/pagel-animas-river-po...
- sertsa 10y ago
  The city of Durango does not normally pull its water supply from the Animas River but rather the Florida River which is not known for a large heavy metal load. Animas river water is used as a backup supply.
findyoucef 10y ago
Having traveled through this area of colorado, I'm not surprised that depression runs rampant. There is literally nothing out there, no industry, no jobs, nothing. When travel through these towns it's as if you travel back in time and the majority of these people are stuck there. They have no way out. I'm not sure what solution is for towns like these.
kennethh 10y ago
Am I the only one who react when they write in the article "Although more men than women take their own lives, the rate of suicide has nearly doubled among middle-aged white women since 1999..." And the whole article is about women who take suicide. The writer is a woman but this is typical for big publishers like Washington Press. They very seldom write about mens problems and challenges.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Men die more often than women. But women have started using more lethal methods than they used to, and women make more attempts. This combination - increased lethality of method and greater number of attempted suicide is worrying. Newspapers often report the fact that rates of death by suicide are rising. (It's a bit more complicated than how they report it - there was a decline in rates for many years). Most of the rise is in women. In the UK rates of death for men have dropped a bit, but rates for women have risen a bit, causing the overall number to rise. Washington Post has written before about the disproportionate number of male deaths by suicide, so they're not ignoring it. A couple of examples: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-high-suicide-rate-among-elderly-white-men-who-may-suffer-from-depression/2014/12/05/2bad6ea0-222e-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-h... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/08/31/men-die-by-suicide-at-alarming-rates-this-hashtag-tells-men-its-okay-to-talk-about-mental-health/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/08... If you want an anti-feminist article that mentions in passing male suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/...
lcall 10y ago
There is really no substitute for family, and for coming to know God. The government or this-or-that philosophy will not give our lives purpose and direction. The Mormon missionaries can help. Really.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Do you have any evidence that there's a lower rate of death by suicide for people in the LDS church? One group at increased risk of death by suicide are LGBT people (at all ages). Religious groups tend to do badly by these people, and anecdotally there's a few news article about deaths by suicide of LGBT teens who were part of LDS church. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-lead...
  - lcall 10y ago
    Thanks for your polite response. I've seen references debating general suicide levels in Utah, USA (one interesting, later debunked I think), but I think people tend to believe what they want, and I haven't researched it. My personal experience seeing a wide variety of situations in my own family and others, including many problem types that people experience in life, strongly bears out the quote (Tolstoy?) that happy families are all alike, and miserable ones are each miserable in their own way. Following certain principles leads to the predictable results. We all have hard problems; having the life tools available to deal with them and use them as building blocks instead of being crushed by them, makes me feel very fortunate. I hope you don't mind if I add, to to try to somewhat dissuade others' anger: Some people respond harshly when one who is not atheist simply says what one knows personally from experience. It's usually good to hear a variety of viewpoints. I just know what I see, etc and how it all relates. So I just try to keep going forward with purpose and direction, because I know where it leads, and the things I can't control will be OK eventually.
    - lcall 10y ago
      ps: I certainly don't mean all sadness is one's own fault, or that medication is never warranted, nor do I wish to minimize the realities we can all face as individuals. But life decisions, perspective, forgiveness, knowledge of purpose and answers to the big questions, support systems, etc etc, seem to matter most of all.

99 points by wormold 10y ago

peterwwillis 10y ago

So women are now committing suicide at the same rate as men?

DanBC 10y ago
No. Men are still dying more than women. But women attempt suicide more often than men. And women have started using more lethal means than they used to. And the combination - more suicide attempts, more lethal methods, is worrying.
- xherberta 10y ago
  Right. The way I look at this, suicide attempts are just the tail, the extreme cases -- even more people are not quite that desperate, are suffering at a level that's only almost unbearable.
niels_olson 10y ago
No, men die of suicide at 3.5x the rate of women. But there have been similar articles about the general trend of increasing suicide rates, and the highest rate being among white men. Whenever there's a gender or race break-out, there's opportunity for specific articles as people dig deeper into the data and start finding out the rates for other sub-populations.

ChuckMcM 10y ago

"nearly 1 in 4 white women ages 50 to 64 is taking an antidepressant, according to federal health officials." This is the saddest thing. My wife remarked that there was a weird sense of expectancy that if you were a white female of middle age you were expected by your peers to be taking anti-depressants.

douche 10y ago
Out of the other 3 in 4, how many are self-medicating with something else? Coincidently, my mother has three sisters, and all of them are in this age range. Two are on antidepressants. Two of them drink a bottle or two of wine a day. There is some overlap there. Mother's little helper...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

DanBC 10y ago

> according to a Washington Post analysis of federal health data. I wish they'd released this.

toomuchtodo 10y ago
Ask them to. EDIT: I just emailed the article author asking if they'd release the data in a Github repo [1]. Default to action. [1] https://github.com/washingtonpost https://github.com/washingtonpost
- bnjms 10y ago
  [1]. Default to action. There is a maxim worth adopting.
  - clarry 10y ago
    That is one way to end up with too much to do.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - godDLL 10y ago
      Or exactly the other way around.
    - bnjms 10y ago
      Maybe depending on the person and which side they come from. Personally I come from the side of defaulting to doing nothing. Deciding against action is easy to me. Defaulting to action means avoiding the doldrums of apathy. I imagine more are like me than otherwise.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
ikeboy 10y ago
I'm curious how significant this is. The article sounds like it might be abuse of subgroup analysis as in https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/ i.e. check every state, check a dozen demographics in each state, and one of those is going to have higher suicide rates than the rest. Doesn't mean it's some feature of that demographic instead of random chance.

zepto 10y ago

Depression is not caused by a deficiency of medications, but by a deficiency of hope, so medications cannot cure it.

savanaly 10y ago
Source.
- zenkat 10y ago
  Experience.
- zepto 10y ago
  If you can provide a source showing either that a deficiency of medication is the cause of depression, or that medications do cure depression, then I will provide a source.
  - idle_processor 10y ago
    You made a claim: "medications cannot cure [depression]." The burden of proof is with you, not with savanaly.
    - zepto 10y ago
      Actually no, the burden of proof is not with me. I am claiming that something doesn't exist - I.e. A medication that cures depression. This is similar to saying 'there are no unicorns'. Neither statement can be proven by citation since there is always the possibility that a unicorn (or a medication that cures depression) has been overlooked. If there is such a medication, it should be trivial for savanaly to point it out.
      - ashleypt 10y ago
        I think a lot of people are getting confused about 'cure' vs 'management.' In my case it helped with neither. SSRIs only /treat/ (not cure) a deficiency of serotonin, which for some people is all they need. I think some people have a strong genetic predisposition to depression, however that doesn't mean "therefore medication." But depression comes in a lot more forms than just a simple serotonin deficiency, it's also thought that dopamine and norepinephrine play important roles. Personally, antidepressants never helped me, though a combination of physical exercise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_physical_exercise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_phy... - seriously read that, I used to think exercise was just about living longer and being "healthy" in some abstract sense, which were the opposite of what I wanted at the time) and meditation has helped. It hasn't made me happier but I think it's effectively treated my depression. When someone doesn't have the ability to "lift" themselves out of their depression, there isn't suddenly a binary "either they need an SSRI/SNRI or RIP tough luck". Some people have hypothyroidism (this was my case) and no amount of psychoactive drugs is going to help with that because the neurotransmitters aren't even being manufactured in the first place and even if they were you'd barely have the energy to utilize them. Other people just don't respond to SSRIs but would still respond to the massive boost of not just serotonin but dopamine and norepinephrine caused by daily (especially aerobic or HIIT) exercise (it also rewires the reward centers and dozens of other things, read that article). Some people might have bottled up emotions or physical influences increasing their cortisol - high cortisol can make you feel depressed too. Meditating lowers that and brings out your emotions so you can cry if needed (which FURTHER decreases cortisol). That was kind of the last component for me. Some depressed people need someone to not just give up after trying an SSRI but actively get them doing the lifestyle changes, whether that's self-applied in CBT as in Feeling Good, exercise, meditation, getting out more, whatever. Like they seriously need to be guided to do it in real time, they can't just be expected to even remember to do it. Also blood work and hormone tests are simple to do - it might just be a lack of micronutrients or hyper/hypothyroidism (especially in this age group of middle aged women. personally I'm 20f)

soared 10y ago

Worth discussing: Positive association between altitude and suicide https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/

czbond 10y ago
Really interesting - thanks for posting.

cowardlydragon 10y ago

Women aren't the demographic with a suicide problem in that age range... But my compassion is gone after the election.

throwanem 10y ago
If all it takes to destroy your compassion is losing an election, you never cared to begin with. You only claimed you did.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
DanBC 10y ago
Risk of death by suicide is much higher in that group of women than it is in younger women. Read the fucking CDC numbers.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  One suspects GP was pointing out that late-middle-age men die by suicide more often than late-middle-age women.
  - DanBC 10y ago
    ...but women in that age group have more suicidal thoughts, and have more suicidal behaviour (planning, preparation), and have more suicide attempts than men. If women switch to more lethal methods - which is what this article says is happening - they'll soon overtake men in numbers of deaths, especially in this age group.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      It really would be news, if any cohort of women had a higher suicide rate than the same cohort of men. That isn't the case, however, and men's rates are ticking up just like women's. TFA offered no evidence for the "more lethal methods" claim.

xherberta 10y ago

“It’s really hard to withdraw from antidepressants,” said New York psychiatrist and pharmacology expert Julie Holland. In some cases, “people feel like cold water is running down their spine. They can feel their brain sloshing around, or electric zaps in their head.” Dang. If it's true as claimed that medications only help half the time, this seems like a strong encouragement to try things like exercise, yoga, and lifestyle changes before going the medication route. Unless you're so depressed you honestly can't make those changes... as commenters have mentioned, sometimes medications are absolutely helpful, needed, and life-saving. I've heard of cases where being on a medication just for a short time helped people break out of a rut. If you're getting a prescription, it seems worthwhile to ask docs for options that are less problematic to get off of.

ianai 10y ago
It can be chicken and egg. I imagine that for many personal lifestyle changes are more difficult than popping a pill. Once they start to feel the benefits of medication then doing things out of the norm may come easier. In my own anecdote, it was over the counter stuff like St John's Wort and valerian that helped me do the life change stuff. Also, no one lives in a vacuum. If your husband/wife and kids are all used to you not doing things like yoga, exercise, and whatever else they may subtly make comments or behaviors that make lifestyle change difficult to near impossible.
- fapjacks 10y ago
  For me, as someone that's been through it, and as someone that other people in my group of friends come to for help, the thing about exercise, cleanliness, and diet is that you're right, it is a hard lifestyle change. For most people. But I notice that almost everyone gets to a point when they hit their own personal rock-bottom, and they're willing to try anything. One of my best friends said something similar when we were talking about his wife, who suffers from PTSD and bouts of depression. He said she wouldn't want to try it because she is stuck in bed all day. And I told him to tell her that the change will be almost immediate, and it will keep up as long as she keeps it up. She got out of bed. Maybe some people don't want to change. But in the pits of despair that I have been in, and my friends have been in, people are willing to do almost anything to make the pain go away. Exercise, cleanliness and diet are not cures for everyone, but they do help, and they help immediately, for long enough to make it to your doctor's appointment. For some reason, I get pushback from people on the internet about this, but it works. The only cure for this is time, and that's just an unfortunate fact. But when people are told those things make positive changes immediately, almost everyone gets out of bed or off the couch to try it. It all comes down to whether or not the person wants the pain to go away. If they do, they'll make the change, even temporarily.

icantdrive55 10y ago

The title is cute, but I guess it's good to get people talking about mental illness. I think we all know the reason Americans are so misserable. We are brought up thinking we can do anything, if we work hard enough. Most of us were brought up by parents who lived in an era where that was more true. The economy is terrible. (Sorry folks, but just last month the unemployment figure that calculates the number of people who can work, but just stopped looking for working doubled from a year ago for the same month. We all know people who stay at home, or are isolated. Just kinda getting by?) Don't get me started on Globalism. That is the one reason he was elected. We all knew something wasen't right, but he was the first public person to yell it. Media, and even societal norms(family expectations) keep telling us to "get it together". Turn on any t.v. show and it's about financial success, or looks. Men are just expected to make money. Women have the added burden of making it gracefully; making it while still looking great. Sorry women, I have seen how you judge other women. For the most part you can be nasty. My ex was attractive, and very naturally thin. She always had one woman at work who gave her a hard time. And they way men objectify women is just wrong. It's become so common place, it seems like it's acceptable? She pretty, so she a good person? I don't get it. Media never lets up on being beautiful, and desirable. We are living in a superficial era. It's been that way for awhile, but it's just gotten worse. What's the first question the average Dinkleberry asks someone when they meet, "What do you do?". It's the American equalevent of saying hello. What--do--you--do? I didn't like it 20 years ago when it was basically yelled in a bar, but now it's everwhere. Personally, I don't judge a person on WTD. Got a little off track. Veterans come home from duty, and expect a decent job. These jobs don't exist, or are hard to obtain. Some have understanding families. Some actually get some soul crushing help from "entitlement programs". (Before you say anything--apply for Food Stamps, medi-cal(yes, I know veterans administration "takes care" of them), or section 8 housing. It's a ego smashing experience.) I don't want to let up on the American expectation problem: Men: In good shape. Financially independent. A promising job, or potential to obtain a promising job. Kida handsome. Women: Kinda the same, but more emphasis is put on appearance. Plus--both are are just expected to be good all knowing parents. O.k.-- Since we are all expected to be some '50's version of success, we work hard. Some spend a lot of time in school and find success. Some get lucky. Some are born into it. Many people are just having a hard time. Many people are having a very hard time--on so many levels. Many people have a mental illness pop up. We rely on Psychologists, and Medical Doctors to help. They, for the most part, have failed spectacularly. Psychiatrits were duped into beliving these drugs work 50% of the time. Actually, every Psychiatrist I have listen too told me around 2/3's of the time. The latest drug I looked in was 62% over placebo. I belive that was Abilify. The placebo number is always high in these dubious studies. Personally, as someone who has been on at least 10 different drugs--(all paid for out of pocket); I along with a researcher named Irvin Kirsch belive most of these drugs are worthless. I did find certain, potentially addictive drugs, like clonezepam, and bupenorpine, helpful, but they have their problems. If I had a do over, I don't think I would have ever walked into a Psychologists/Psychiatrists office, but you have to do it. You need to find out for yourself. They seem to help a lot of my friends. I'm not qualified to comment on pharmacology. When I see people turning to street drugs to alleviate the misery; I kinda understand why. To me, it's never been worth the risks though. I have never felt that bad. I don't have any remedies--other than to buck the societal norms. Be more understanding? I do know we need to show understanding to those in pain. (physical & mental) We need to be more sympathetic. That whole, "walk a mile in a man's shoes." We need to lighten up. No one has a perfect life. We need to demand change in our social programs. We need to need to do something radical. Yesterday! (The FDA just sent out guidelines to every doctor in the United States concerning prescription guidelines of opiate based drugs. What I think the FDA missed was the core problem people become dependent on these drugs to begin with. They have misserable lives, and the drugs alleviate the missery for a few months. I have seen about 9 months of relief, and then a lifetime of trying to get off them. So yes, we need to curtail their use, but we can't let people in pain just suffer. It's a balancing act. I don't believe cancer should be the marker of wether someone is prescribed these addictive drugs.). Again, a bit off base. I'm tired of the huge number of suicides, and tired of just seeing more homeless monthly. I'm tired of seeing people in pain. I'm tired of my life. Just dissalusioned. This is not the greatest country anymore, on a lot of levels.

chmaynard 10y ago

Long ago, a cousin of mine and her husband raised their family in Durango. I think they all felt it was a great place to grow up, especially because they were passionate about exploring the wilderness around them. Attempting to settle there as an adult with only a high school education and build a life is another matter. Three of their four sons moved to the Front Range to go to college, raise their families, and pursue careers.

ChrisNorstrom 10y ago

http://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depression.html http://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depress... High altitutes can increase suicide and depression in certain people. While in others, they get a sense of feeling "at home".

jhayward 10y ago
Altitude apparently shows up both as an increase in depression and a decrease in ADHD. One researcher hypothesizes that altitude affects both serotonin and dopamine production, decreasing serotonin and increasing dopamine. https://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-in-utah-and-one-neuroscientist-thinks-he-knows-why https://mic.com/articles/104096/there-s-a-suicide-epidemic-i...

justinator 10y ago

I'm just going to throw this idea out - although I have no evidence either way, but: is there something in the water? Durango's water supply is the Animas, which is downriver from Silverton, and many old, abandoned mines and basically SuperFund sites (even though there's pressure to not call them that - or get that Federal $$$ to fix the problem, for fear of tourist dollars leaving). Are there known correlations between the types of acidic chemicals and heavy metals found in this type of polluted water and mental health? I ask because Durango is a beautiful, sunny place. It's hard not to be there in the summertime and not feel wonderful. Yes, in the winter, it's a little more clausterphobic, and you ARE in the middle of nowhere, but it doesn't have the depressive anxiety feeling of a place like Leadville used to have, when their main Moly mine closed down. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/12/opinions/pagel-animas-river-pollution/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/12/opinions/pagel-animas-river-po...

sertsa 10y ago
The city of Durango does not normally pull its water supply from the Animas River but rather the Florida River which is not known for a large heavy metal load. Animas river water is used as a backup supply.

findyoucef 10y ago

Having traveled through this area of colorado, I'm not surprised that depression runs rampant. There is literally nothing out there, no industry, no jobs, nothing. When travel through these towns it's as if you travel back in time and the majority of these people are stuck there. They have no way out. I'm not sure what solution is for towns like these.

kennethh 10y ago

Am I the only one who react when they write in the article "Although more men than women take their own lives, the rate of suicide has nearly doubled among middle-aged white women since 1999..." And the whole article is about women who take suicide. The writer is a woman but this is typical for big publishers like Washington Press. They very seldom write about mens problems and challenges.

DanBC 10y ago
Men die more often than women. But women have started using more lethal methods than they used to, and women make more attempts. This combination - increased lethality of method and greater number of attempted suicide is worrying. Newspapers often report the fact that rates of death by suicide are rising. (It's a bit more complicated than how they report it - there was a decline in rates for many years). Most of the rise is in women. In the UK rates of death for men have dropped a bit, but rates for women have risen a bit, causing the overall number to rise. Washington Post has written before about the disproportionate number of male deaths by suicide, so they're not ignoring it. A couple of examples: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-high-suicide-rate-among-elderly-white-men-who-may-suffer-from-depression/2014/12/05/2bad6ea0-222e-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/the-h... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/08/31/men-die-by-suicide-at-alarming-rates-this-hashtag-tells-men-its-okay-to-talk-about-mental-health/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/08... If you want an anti-feminist article that mentions in passing male suicide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/feminists-treat-men-badly-its-bad-for-feminism/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/06/30/...

lcall 10y ago

There is really no substitute for family, and for coming to know God. The government or this-or-that philosophy will not give our lives purpose and direction. The Mormon missionaries can help. Really.

DanBC 10y ago
Do you have any evidence that there's a lower rate of death by suicide for people in the LDS church? One group at increased risk of death by suicide are LGBT people (at all ages). Religious groups tend to do badly by these people, and anecdotally there's a few news article about deaths by suicide of LGBT teens who were part of LDS church. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-leaders-mourn-reported-deaths-in-Mormon-LGBT-community.html?pg=all http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865646414/LDS-Church-lead...
- lcall 10y ago
  Thanks for your polite response. I've seen references debating general suicide levels in Utah, USA (one interesting, later debunked I think), but I think people tend to believe what they want, and I haven't researched it. My personal experience seeing a wide variety of situations in my own family and others, including many problem types that people experience in life, strongly bears out the quote (Tolstoy?) that happy families are all alike, and miserable ones are each miserable in their own way. Following certain principles leads to the predictable results. We all have hard problems; having the life tools available to deal with them and use them as building blocks instead of being crushed by them, makes me feel very fortunate. I hope you don't mind if I add, to to try to somewhat dissuade others' anger: Some people respond harshly when one who is not atheist simply says what one knows personally from experience. It's usually good to hear a variety of viewpoints. I just know what I see, etc and how it all relates. So I just try to keep going forward with purpose and direction, because I know where it leads, and the things I can't control will be OK eventually.
  - lcall 10y ago
    ps: I certainly don't mean all sadness is one's own fault, or that medication is never warranted, nor do I wish to minimize the realities we can all face as individuals. But life decisions, perspective, forgiveness, knowledge of purpose and answers to the big questions, support systems, etc etc, seem to matter most of all.