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Please show where I said anything about "support of the NSA programs in the past." Please show where I said anything about the "left". This is a problem that

by liber8 10y ago

Please show where I said anything about "support of the NSA programs in the past." Please show where I said anything about the "left". This is a problem that both democrats and republicans suffer from. Remember when the PATRIOT Act was proposed and enacted? Most democrats thought it was an unbelievably unconstitutional overreach that would be the end of the world, and republicans mostly saw it as a necessary tool that didn't even really have any constitutional concerns worth mentioning. Magically these perspectives flipped when Obama got into power. This happens every single time. *I would also note that journalists' "tolerance" for the NSA programs over the last 8 years is essentially tacit support. Nearly all of the network media's coverage of the NSA issues over the last few years has been centered on whether the effectiveness of the programs justify their existence. There has been virtually no network condemnation of these programs based on their illegality and unconstitutionality, whereas that was a major focus from 2001 to 2007.

dllthomas 10y ago
> Magically these perspectives flipped when Obama got into power. Can you provide evidence of this? I know a lot of Democrats, and I don't remember any of them ever saying a positive word about the PATRIOT Act. Certainly, those actually in power are always reluctant to give it up. But I haven't seen that applying to their supporters in the particular example you cite.
- mgreg 10y ago
  How about this from none less than Senator Feinstein of California. She also happens to have been the head of the senate intelligence committee which is supposed to hold the intelligence departments accountable. They (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc.) always ask for more powers, it's her job (and the job of the entire committee) to protect Americans and their privacy and protection under the law. Senator Dianne Feinstein Urges Senate Support for USA-Patriot Act Reauthorization http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=792a048f-7e9c-9af9-7232-1ddd4a97cb2e http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-relea...
  - dllthomas 10y ago
    Feinstein voted to support the initial passage of the PATRIOT Act, and voted to reauthorize in 2006. She's been on the same (IMO wrong, but YMMV) side of this since the get-go.
linkregister 10y ago
You and I must have been living in alternate realities. The furor over the Snowden leaks was extreme. The calls for President Obama to shut down the NSA were primarily from the far left. The article count of NSA-critical articles from NYT and the Washington Post vastly outnumbered those from conservative news organizations, such as Fox News and the Drudge Report (admittedly an aggregator). If you perform an internet search for "Pardon Snowden", the vast majority of these articles arise from publications traditionally associated with Democratic Party support. I remember some milquetoast grumbling about the USA-PATRIOT Act from various publications on both the right and the left, but the quantity of outrage was far greater after the Snowden leaks. In case you need any convincing: https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=unconstitutional+nsa https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=unconstitutional+nsa In the top 10 results, you'll see various "MSM" news sources. The sole defender of the NSA programs comes from The National Review, a (high-quality) conservative newspaper. I'm not trying to use "gotcha!" commenting, but I think it is grossly misstates the position of most left-wing folks to push this flip-flop theory. I will readily admit that flip-flopping happens all the time about other matters but I have not witnessed it at all with this one. On the matter of NSA surveillance being abused by President-elect Trump, I consider it extremely unlikely. I consider the left's fear to be based off of a failure by the government to communicate the programs effectively to the press.
- liber8 10y ago
  I just read the the first 5 results of your google link. There isn't any outrage in any of them. They are actually fairly unbiased news reports about court rulings on the illegality of various NSA programs, not opinion pieces criticizing the programs. The post that we're discussing is an opinion piece, and my comments were about opinion pieces. There is no dispute that there has been an incredible amount of news coverage of state surveillance since the Assange, Manning, and Snowden leaks. Frankly, given how news is now consumed, it's very possible we're living in alternate realities. The PATRIOT outrage I was referring to was circa 2002. Where I lived, the media reported vociferous outrage from democrats and nonchalance from republicans. Since "Obama" has wielded--and greatly expanded--the state's surveillance powers, I have not heard anywhere near the same objection from democrats. (Note that I say "Obama" because I have no idea whether and to what extent he has actually overseen the NSA's actions; its entirely possible much of these programs have been hidden from the executive branch for decades, which is frankly much more worrisome). The few polls i just looked at seem to back up this flip-flop: [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/12/news/la-pn-republicans-democrats-nsa-poll-20130612 http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/12/news/la-pn-republica... ["With President Obama in the White House, Democrats stand in support of the NSA’s methods, 49% to 40% in the Gallup survey. Republicans were opposed 63% to 32%. When President George W. Bush was in office, Republicans were supportive of government surveillance efforts and Democrats opposed."] [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/poll-republicans-hate-nsa-spying-democrats-are-ambivalent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/poll-... ["Interestingly, the most intense opposition to the programs comes from the political right. Republicans disapprove of the program by almost a 2 to 1 margin. Independents disapprove, 56 to 34 percent. But 49 percent of Democrats approve of the program, compared with 40 percent who disapprove."] I don't share your believe that Trump won't seek to use surveillance for his own purposes. Not because I think he's a horrible person, but simply because people use the tools at their disposal, especially in times of stress or emergency. Of course, the president of the U.S. deals with nothing but stress and emergencies. Finally, I don't think anyone's fear is based off a failure to communicate the programs effectively. If the programs were wildly successful, those successes would be publicized by now. The NSA needs some good publicity. By the way, negative publicity the NSA can't avoid is largely its own fault. It's current slogan is "Your Data: If You Have Nothing to Hide, You Have Nothing to Fear" https://nsa.gov1.info/data/ https://nsa.gov1.info/data/ I'm not sure you could come up with a more Orwellian slogan if you tried.

by liber8 10y ago

dllthomas 10y ago

> Magically these perspectives flipped when Obama got into power. Can you provide evidence of this? I know a lot of Democrats, and I don't remember any of them ever saying a positive word about the PATRIOT Act. Certainly, those actually in power are always reluctant to give it up. But I haven't seen that applying to their supporters in the particular example you cite.

mgreg 10y ago
How about this from none less than Senator Feinstein of California. She also happens to have been the head of the senate intelligence committee which is supposed to hold the intelligence departments accountable. They (CIA, NSA, FBI, etc.) always ask for more powers, it's her job (and the job of the entire committee) to protect Americans and their privacy and protection under the law. Senator Dianne Feinstein Urges Senate Support for USA-Patriot Act Reauthorization http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=792a048f-7e9c-9af9-7232-1ddd4a97cb2e http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-relea...
- dllthomas 10y ago
  Feinstein voted to support the initial passage of the PATRIOT Act, and voted to reauthorize in 2006. She's been on the same (IMO wrong, but YMMV) side of this since the get-go.

linkregister 10y ago

You and I must have been living in alternate realities. The furor over the Snowden leaks was extreme. The calls for President Obama to shut down the NSA were primarily from the far left. The article count of NSA-critical articles from NYT and the Washington Post vastly outnumbered those from conservative news organizations, such as Fox News and the Drudge Report (admittedly an aggregator). If you perform an internet search for "Pardon Snowden", the vast majority of these articles arise from publications traditionally associated with Democratic Party support. I remember some milquetoast grumbling about the USA-PATRIOT Act from various publications on both the right and the left, but the quantity of outrage was far greater after the Snowden leaks. In case you need any convincing: https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=unconstitutional+nsa https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=unconstitutional+nsa In the top 10 results, you'll see various "MSM" news sources. The sole defender of the NSA programs comes from The National Review, a (high-quality) conservative newspaper. I'm not trying to use "gotcha!" commenting, but I think it is grossly misstates the position of most left-wing folks to push this flip-flop theory. I will readily admit that flip-flopping happens all the time about other matters but I have not witnessed it at all with this one. On the matter of NSA surveillance being abused by President-elect Trump, I consider it extremely unlikely. I consider the left's fear to be based off of a failure by the government to communicate the programs effectively to the press.

liber8 10y ago
I just read the the first 5 results of your google link. There isn't any outrage in any of them. They are actually fairly unbiased news reports about court rulings on the illegality of various NSA programs, not opinion pieces criticizing the programs. The post that we're discussing is an opinion piece, and my comments were about opinion pieces. There is no dispute that there has been an incredible amount of news coverage of state surveillance since the Assange, Manning, and Snowden leaks. Frankly, given how news is now consumed, it's very possible we're living in alternate realities. The PATRIOT outrage I was referring to was circa 2002. Where I lived, the media reported vociferous outrage from democrats and nonchalance from republicans. Since "Obama" has wielded--and greatly expanded--the state's surveillance powers, I have not heard anywhere near the same objection from democrats. (Note that I say "Obama" because I have no idea whether and to what extent he has actually overseen the NSA's actions; its entirely possible much of these programs have been hidden from the executive branch for decades, which is frankly much more worrisome). The few polls i just looked at seem to back up this flip-flop: [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/12/news/la-pn-republicans-democrats-nsa-poll-20130612 http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/12/news/la-pn-republica... ["With President Obama in the White House, Democrats stand in support of the NSA’s methods, 49% to 40% in the Gallup survey. Republicans were opposed 63% to 32%. When President George W. Bush was in office, Republicans were supportive of government surveillance efforts and Democrats opposed."] [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/poll-republicans-hate-nsa-spying-democrats-are-ambivalent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/12/poll-... ["Interestingly, the most intense opposition to the programs comes from the political right. Republicans disapprove of the program by almost a 2 to 1 margin. Independents disapprove, 56 to 34 percent. But 49 percent of Democrats approve of the program, compared with 40 percent who disapprove."] I don't share your believe that Trump won't seek to use surveillance for his own purposes. Not because I think he's a horrible person, but simply because people use the tools at their disposal, especially in times of stress or emergency. Of course, the president of the U.S. deals with nothing but stress and emergencies. Finally, I don't think anyone's fear is based off a failure to communicate the programs effectively. If the programs were wildly successful, those successes would be publicized by now. The NSA needs some good publicity. By the way, negative publicity the NSA can't avoid is largely its own fault. It's current slogan is "Your Data: If You Have Nothing to Hide, You Have Nothing to Fear" https://nsa.gov1.info/data/ https://nsa.gov1.info/data/ I'm not sure you could come up with a more Orwellian slogan if you tried.