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I'm not a Trump supporter. I didn't vote for him, and as noted in my previous post, I am truly horrified when I think about what his Supreme Court choices could

I'm not a Trump supporter. I didn't vote for him, and as noted in my previous post, I am truly horrified when I think about what his Supreme Court choices could mean for marriage equality ( among other things! ). * We don't need to give H1-B guest workers negotiating power. * We need to end H1-B and send the guest workers home. * We need to replace the guest workers with American workers. Access to jobs, and the economic mobility accompanied by it, is a bedrock social justice issue in America. It is an enormous social injustice to make American workers compete with foreign nationals for jobs. Frankly, I don't see how it's possible read about American workers having to train their foreign worker replacements and not see it as anything less than deeply and tragically wrong.

464192002d7fe1c 10y ago
I am a trump supporter, and work in tech management. I agree with 100% of what you're saying. I've personally seen the abuses of the H-1B program. I know that the required job searches prior to utilizing the H-1B program are basically perfunctory. I know that the workers under the program are abused. I know it depresses wages for American workers overall. Its funny, I generally despise the term "social justice," but, you're dead on here.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Thanks for your remarks. We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on Trump, but you and I do have common ground in our belief that access to employment is an issue of social justice, and that the H1-B program has been abused and corrupted in a way that has created profoundly unjust outcomes for Americans. The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? Why do we even need H1-B?
  - mandeepj 10y ago
    > The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? Why do we even need H1-B? I'm pretty convinced you don't have solid understanding about inner workings of immigration and H1-B. You just have some hatred against this visa. Most of jobs holded by h1-b candidates are temporary and their ranks stand at the very bottom of the food chain. These jobs last not more than few months and in very rare cases 1-2 years. So, they are the first ones to leave the company before the permanent ones. H1-b candidates are very expensive to hire. Although, they do get paid very low. Now, please go and educate five other people so that we can end this BS propaganda.
    - biocomputation 10y ago
      >> You just have some hatred against this visa. Jobs are a bedrock social justice issue in the United States. You're free to characterize me remarks however you like, but I'm pretty sure that the fact that 60-80% of H1-B visas are issued to citizens of only two countries is a sign that the program has been hopelessly corrupted.
      - mandeepj 10y ago
        > I'm pretty sure that the fact that 60-80% of H1-B visas are issued to citizens of only two countries is a sign that the program has been hopelessly corrupted. Those two countries are also highly populated in the world so the numbers are proportional
    - serge2k 10y ago
      > H1-b candidates are very expensive to hire. Although, they do get paid very low. Huh. I don't feel horribly underpaid. I'm pretty sure I'm making about the same as my American citizen peers.
      - mandeepj 10y ago
        are you a full time employee or a contractor? first layer companies charge around $80 per hour. Contractors get paid around $50.
        serge2k 10y ago
        I'm a salaried full time employee at a major tech company.
        mandeepj 10y ago
        Good for you. This is why you don't feel underpaid
  - jfim 10y ago
    > The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? H-1B is part of the immigration path for many immigrants, since it's a dual intent visa. There's a couple paths to immigrating on a permanent basis to the US, H-1B to green card to citizenship being one of them.
- kartman 10y ago
  here they come, crawling out of the woodwork...emboldened. and this is just the beginning of who knows how long a time period..at least 4 years , maybe indefinite. both this and parent comment who mentioned he is gay. both pretty much saying, as long as it does not affect us and our group, let us disrupt the lives of people who came here legally and have paid taxes etc and throw them back. its not that you are saying change the policy for new guys coming in who can then decide whether to come in- you actively want to disrupt the lives of people you probably see and work with everyday, maybe go to happy hour with. who came here and have built a life with some long hard path to a greencard implied when they chose to take the H1 path. today this group, tomorrow another, then the next - attack the non-enfranchised and weak, weaken the next group, attack. and so it has begun... i am a bit nervous of having typed this out. fear.
  - biocomputation 10y ago
    >> here they come, crawling out of the woodwork...emboldened. Who exactly is crawling out of the woodwork? People who are against H1-B because it creates profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers? When H1-B is discussed on HN, a lot of the participants who are American citizens have written a lot of negative remarks about the program. Are you suggesting that all these people are closet racists as well? H1-B is unpopular program with American workers because access to jobs is one of the most important elements of social mobility in the US and a hell of a lot of American workers just happen to believe that they should not have to compete with foreign nationals for economic opportunity. I've said it many times in this thread: Access to jobs is a bedrock social justice issue in America. No one here has made a single personal attack or nasty remark to anyone else. Your remarks make you sound like a proper fascist, and you really should apologize.
    - kartman 10y ago
      one of your earlier comments can be paraphrased to "round em up and throw em out" and i am a fascist :)? just answer this - is this what you propose: a H1b guy had been here 8 years, greencard is in process 4 years, scheduled to come in 2 more.. you want him fired and sent back home right away? btw, i run a business. when you hire and do it right - you hire for value produced and then consider cost of worker. as a consumer you want the best prices. but you are not comfortable with how the market will ensure it delivers your want, especially in your field of work. crawling out of woodwork refers to the closet trump supporters who did not speak up until now, there are plenty and you will see plenty more. like the guy whose comment i replied to originally. 47% and trending upwards. trump has used extremely skilled techniques to mobilize crowds and influence people - even very intelligent people. he will continue to do so, since mob momentum is very very hard to fight against. whether you realize it or no, its not about specific issues anymore because each of them is small by itself. you said you are gay, so just wait your turn after the H1b dudes, mexicans working fields producing our food and a few others are dealt with.
jacques_chester 10y ago
> We need to replace the guest workers with American workers. I object to the idea that I am as substitutable as a bag of rice or a tonne of pig iron.
- EliRivers 10y ago
  I understand that you object to it. In terms of your value to your employer, is it not true?
  - jacques_chester 10y ago
    > In terms of your value to your employer, is it not true? I work for humans, so: Nope.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      Humans have a long record of classifying people in that way, so; yep. If you don't like the way I just passive-aggressively took your glib, evidenceless hipster comeback and repeated it back it to you, don't spout that sort of passive aggressive childish crap. If you want adult conversations, you know where to find us.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  Please know that many of my responses here have been hastily typed and that I in no way meant to suggest that a person is interchangeable in the same way as a bag of rice or a ton of pig iron. I simply believe that American workers should get first crack at all economic opportunities in this country and that it is unjust to make Americans compete with foreign nationals for jobs.
  - jacques_chester 10y ago
    I'd prefer if you just said it's because you'd like protectionism to lead to higher wages for American citizens. Oddly enough, right now, the USA skims the world's talent this way. You get to tax the brightest, you get to profit from the companies they found here, the people they employ here, the business they do here. I'm here on the E3. Australia has turned up for every US war since Korea. Our blood is mixed with yours in the mud of a dozen nations on four continents, including ours. Our reward, as one of my colleagues quipped, is that the US gets to take our brightest people.
throwaway122112 10y ago
I am a H1b worker and a Indian national, I did my masters in one of the top universities in US and in the past 10 years that I have been in US, have worked at 2 of the big 5 companies. Yes for past 10 years I have been on H1b Visa, why you might ask ? because you see, Indians don't get green cards for decades (vs a Australian national or an Irish national you can get a green card in less than 3 years), so we are forced to be in H1b visa, until we get a green card. But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber. Force local companies to use homegrown cloud rather than the one that Amazon and MSFT sells. After all why use services of these companies if you don't get a chance at building them. Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves. To steal your words, anything less of a response than that is deeply and tragically wrong. Remember, europeans built ships and explored the world because turks closed access land route via Constantinople. Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  I'm very sorry that you are upset by the fact that American citizens believe Americans shouldn't have to compete with foreign nationals for jobs. I can totally understand how you might feel like it's an attack against you personally, but it isn't. Abuse of the H1-B system has created profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers, and as an American citizen I feel like I should speak out against programs that are harmful to my fellow citizens. >> But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber. >> Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves. I wish you and India nothing but success and prosperity no matter what path you and your country choose! India should absolutely do what needs to be done to protect its citizens and put them first in line for economic opportunities. Just like they do right now! >> Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage. Competition for US firms, in concert with ending the H1-B would produce best of both world results for Americans, both as employees and as consumers. I absolutely welcome any alternative to companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook.
pj_mukh 10y ago
This is textbook tribal protectionism. The result is usually more protectionism from all countries and the destruction of the WTO. Another poster clearly laid out the possible reactions from the Indian government (for example). Your tech companies are making MILLIONS in these other countries, learn how to spread that wealth more efficiently. The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats.
- grzm 10y ago
  "The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats." This seems ripe for a reference request. When has there been either globalized trade or a period of sustained world peace? I'm most definitely skeptical, and would happily be convinced otherwise.
  - pj_mukh 10y ago
    Study[1] after study[2] has analyzed this. You wouldn't know it if you watched enough news, but you are currently living in a period of sustained world peace (unless you live in a localized regional conflict) and trade is fully globalized. In fact, most of the war-torn regions in the world are ones that are economically estranged. We don't think twice about bombing the shit out of Syria because..who cares, it won't affect us. But we dare not do so with China, they buy so many government bonds! The average citizen doesn't actively think about this, but I assure you your government is (even if unconsciously). [1] https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-trade-prevent-war https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-... [2] http://jpr.sagepub.com/content/38/4/445.abstract http://jpr.sagepub.com/content/38/4/445.abstract
    - grzm 10y ago
      Thanks for the links!
      - 10y ago

464192002d7fe1c 10y ago

I am a trump supporter, and work in tech management. I agree with 100% of what you're saying. I've personally seen the abuses of the H-1B program. I know that the required job searches prior to utilizing the H-1B program are basically perfunctory. I know that the workers under the program are abused. I know it depresses wages for American workers overall. Its funny, I generally despise the term "social justice," but, you're dead on here.

biocomputation 10y ago
Thanks for your remarks. We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on Trump, but you and I do have common ground in our belief that access to employment is an issue of social justice, and that the H1-B program has been abused and corrupted in a way that has created profoundly unjust outcomes for Americans. The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? Why do we even need H1-B?
- mandeepj 10y ago
  > The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? Why do we even need H1-B? I'm pretty convinced you don't have solid understanding about inner workings of immigration and H1-B. You just have some hatred against this visa. Most of jobs holded by h1-b candidates are temporary and their ranks stand at the very bottom of the food chain. These jobs last not more than few months and in very rare cases 1-2 years. So, they are the first ones to leave the company before the permanent ones. H1-b candidates are very expensive to hire. Although, they do get paid very low. Now, please go and educate five other people so that we can end this BS propaganda.
  - biocomputation 10y ago
    >> You just have some hatred against this visa. Jobs are a bedrock social justice issue in the United States. You're free to characterize me remarks however you like, but I'm pretty sure that the fact that 60-80% of H1-B visas are issued to citizens of only two countries is a sign that the program has been hopelessly corrupted.
    - mandeepj 10y ago
      > I'm pretty sure that the fact that 60-80% of H1-B visas are issued to citizens of only two countries is a sign that the program has been hopelessly corrupted. Those two countries are also highly populated in the world so the numbers are proportional
  - serge2k 10y ago
    > H1-b candidates are very expensive to hire. Although, they do get paid very low. Huh. I don't feel horribly underpaid. I'm pretty sure I'm making about the same as my American citizen peers.
    - mandeepj 10y ago
      are you a full time employee or a contractor? first layer companies charge around $80 per hour. Contractors get paid around $50.
      - serge2k 10y ago
        I'm a salaried full time employee at a major tech company.
        mandeepj 10y ago
        Good for you. This is why you don't feel underpaid
- jfim 10y ago
  > The United States already has a program for legal immigration, right? H-1B is part of the immigration path for many immigrants, since it's a dual intent visa. There's a couple paths to immigrating on a permanent basis to the US, H-1B to green card to citizenship being one of them.
kartman 10y ago
here they come, crawling out of the woodwork...emboldened. and this is just the beginning of who knows how long a time period..at least 4 years , maybe indefinite. both this and parent comment who mentioned he is gay. both pretty much saying, as long as it does not affect us and our group, let us disrupt the lives of people who came here legally and have paid taxes etc and throw them back. its not that you are saying change the policy for new guys coming in who can then decide whether to come in- you actively want to disrupt the lives of people you probably see and work with everyday, maybe go to happy hour with. who came here and have built a life with some long hard path to a greencard implied when they chose to take the H1 path. today this group, tomorrow another, then the next - attack the non-enfranchised and weak, weaken the next group, attack. and so it has begun... i am a bit nervous of having typed this out. fear.
- biocomputation 10y ago
  >> here they come, crawling out of the woodwork...emboldened. Who exactly is crawling out of the woodwork? People who are against H1-B because it creates profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers? When H1-B is discussed on HN, a lot of the participants who are American citizens have written a lot of negative remarks about the program. Are you suggesting that all these people are closet racists as well? H1-B is unpopular program with American workers because access to jobs is one of the most important elements of social mobility in the US and a hell of a lot of American workers just happen to believe that they should not have to compete with foreign nationals for economic opportunity. I've said it many times in this thread: Access to jobs is a bedrock social justice issue in America. No one here has made a single personal attack or nasty remark to anyone else. Your remarks make you sound like a proper fascist, and you really should apologize.
  - kartman 10y ago
    one of your earlier comments can be paraphrased to "round em up and throw em out" and i am a fascist :)? just answer this - is this what you propose: a H1b guy had been here 8 years, greencard is in process 4 years, scheduled to come in 2 more.. you want him fired and sent back home right away? btw, i run a business. when you hire and do it right - you hire for value produced and then consider cost of worker. as a consumer you want the best prices. but you are not comfortable with how the market will ensure it delivers your want, especially in your field of work. crawling out of woodwork refers to the closet trump supporters who did not speak up until now, there are plenty and you will see plenty more. like the guy whose comment i replied to originally. 47% and trending upwards. trump has used extremely skilled techniques to mobilize crowds and influence people - even very intelligent people. he will continue to do so, since mob momentum is very very hard to fight against. whether you realize it or no, its not about specific issues anymore because each of them is small by itself. you said you are gay, so just wait your turn after the H1b dudes, mexicans working fields producing our food and a few others are dealt with.

jacques_chester 10y ago

> We need to replace the guest workers with American workers. I object to the idea that I am as substitutable as a bag of rice or a tonne of pig iron.

EliRivers 10y ago
I understand that you object to it. In terms of your value to your employer, is it not true?
- jacques_chester 10y ago
  > In terms of your value to your employer, is it not true? I work for humans, so: Nope.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    Humans have a long record of classifying people in that way, so; yep. If you don't like the way I just passive-aggressively took your glib, evidenceless hipster comeback and repeated it back it to you, don't spout that sort of passive aggressive childish crap. If you want adult conversations, you know where to find us.
biocomputation 10y ago
Please know that many of my responses here have been hastily typed and that I in no way meant to suggest that a person is interchangeable in the same way as a bag of rice or a ton of pig iron. I simply believe that American workers should get first crack at all economic opportunities in this country and that it is unjust to make Americans compete with foreign nationals for jobs.
- jacques_chester 10y ago
  I'd prefer if you just said it's because you'd like protectionism to lead to higher wages for American citizens. Oddly enough, right now, the USA skims the world's talent this way. You get to tax the brightest, you get to profit from the companies they found here, the people they employ here, the business they do here. I'm here on the E3. Australia has turned up for every US war since Korea. Our blood is mixed with yours in the mud of a dozen nations on four continents, including ours. Our reward, as one of my colleagues quipped, is that the US gets to take our brightest people.

throwaway122112 10y ago

I am a H1b worker and a Indian national, I did my masters in one of the top universities in US and in the past 10 years that I have been in US, have worked at 2 of the big 5 companies. Yes for past 10 years I have been on H1b Visa, why you might ask ? because you see, Indians don't get green cards for decades (vs a Australian national or an Irish national you can get a green card in less than 3 years), so we are forced to be in H1b visa, until we get a green card. But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber. Force local companies to use homegrown cloud rather than the one that Amazon and MSFT sells. After all why use services of these companies if you don't get a chance at building them. Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves. To steal your words, anything less of a response than that is deeply and tragically wrong. Remember, europeans built ships and explored the world because turks closed access land route via Constantinople. Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage.

biocomputation 10y ago
I'm very sorry that you are upset by the fact that American citizens believe Americans shouldn't have to compete with foreign nationals for jobs. I can totally understand how you might feel like it's an attack against you personally, but it isn't. Abuse of the H1-B system has created profoundly unjust outcomes for American workers, and as an American citizen I feel like I should speak out against programs that are harmful to my fellow citizens. >> But I agree with you, go ahead and remove the H1b visa and send all of us back home. All I then ask is that Indian government enacts laws similar to China (which I think it will, given the current Prime Minister of India) and blocks US companies from operating freely in India, so Indians get a shot at building their own Google, Facebook and Uber. >> Make it a patriotic mission not to use IT from US firms and build it ourselves. I wish you and India nothing but success and prosperity no matter what path you and your country choose! India should absolutely do what needs to be done to protect its citizens and put them first in line for economic opportunities. Just like they do right now! >> Go ahead provide us with that impetus, we will compete with US firms on a global stage. Competition for US firms, in concert with ending the H1-B would produce best of both world results for Americans, both as employees and as consumers. I absolutely welcome any alternative to companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook.

pj_mukh 10y ago

This is textbook tribal protectionism. The result is usually more protectionism from all countries and the destruction of the WTO. Another poster clearly laid out the possible reactions from the Indian government (for example). Your tech companies are making MILLIONS in these other countries, learn how to spread that wealth more efficiently. The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats.

grzm 10y ago
"The world has known only ONE model of peace (yes world peace, look at the metrics), and that is globalized trade, take that away and we'll be back at each other throats." This seems ripe for a reference request. When has there been either globalized trade or a period of sustained world peace? I'm most definitely skeptical, and would happily be convinced otherwise.
- pj_mukh 10y ago
  Study[1] after study[2] has analyzed this. You wouldn't know it if you watched enough news, but you are currently living in a period of sustained world peace (unless you live in a localized regional conflict) and trade is fully globalized. In fact, most of the war-torn regions in the world are ones that are economically estranged. We don't think twice about bombing the shit out of Syria because..who cares, it won't affect us. But we dare not do so with China, they buy so many government bonds! The average citizen doesn't actively think about this, but I assure you your government is (even if unconsciously). [1] https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-trade-prevent-war https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/matthew-o-jackson-can-... [2] http://jpr.sagepub.com/content/38/4/445.abstract http://jpr.sagepub.com/content/38/4/445.abstract
  - grzm 10y ago
    Thanks for the links!
    - 10y ago