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From the screenshot he himself provided [1], it looks like he was confronted about making people at YC feel unsafe, and responded by saying they "shouldn't be o

by RickS 10y ago

From the screenshot he himself provided [1], it looks like he was confronted about making people at YC feel unsafe, and responded by saying they "shouldn't be on the internet". Contrarian views are one thing. Addressing the people who fund your company like a belligerent troll is another. You're entitled to free speech, you're not entitled to a captive ear to hear it. [1] http://i.imgur.com/ReFx2Mr.png http://i.imgur.com/ReFx2Mr.png

atom-morgan 10y ago
"feel unsafe" has been more subjective and ridiculous than ever.
- mundo 10y ago
  "unsafe" has become a bit of a buzzword in the interminable red-vs-blue wars, but everything else about this would've played out the same way if she had said he was "inappropriate" or "unprofessional". Looks to me like free speech is still free and trolling at work still has consequences and there's not much to see here unless you're personally involved with one of the companies.
  - seemingly 10y ago
    I both disagree and dislike both Trump and his supporters. Yet, I realize if you want to diversity of opinion like YC says it wants you can't throw people out when they annoy you. Diverse political discussion among laymen where no one gets annoyed essentially doesn't exist. Peoples opinions follow their perspective, what they understand and what they care about. Just as I take offense to what Trump says people who like Trump will take offense when people say he's a populist, racist or sexist. They will get frustrated and express themselves in ways that aren't productive, but also don't seem that bad to them since they don't think what Trump says is bad. I've excluded people for less, but then I haven't as YC asked sometimes awkward people to be stressed out for a long period of time while saying that diversity of opinion is valued.
    - zo1 10y ago
      People with opposing opinions to the current pervasive narrative are for the most part, part of a minority (yes). For most of us one miss-step or one bad outburst because we're frustrated, and then you're fired (or kicked out). Because you cross that "imaginary" line between dissenting but tolerable opinion and into the "we can now legally and without consequence say you're abusive and shut your opinion down by firing/excluding/arresting you". That's the problem with faux-free speech. To be fair, I think companies and individuals should have a right to disassociate with anyone for any reason they choose (yes including the bad reasons). But they should at least be honest about it, rather than hiding behind some veil of "it's abusive behaviour". Just admit you don't like the opinion before it cross that line, and purge appropriately.
- RickS 10y ago
  > "feel unsafe" has been more subjective and ridiculous than ever. Sure, in the sense of the "liberals and safe spaces" macro topic, I'll concede that. But YC is big on bringing in founders from other countries and giving them the tools to be successful in America. In those scenarios YC is the foundation of their life in the country. Funding, documentation, network, etc. To have voices in the group that's supposed to help you start talking about "build the wall" and deporting people, especially in the context of the larger Trump political movement? Yeah, if a company paid for me to come to a foreign land and do business, but members started talking about deporting all the guys like me and building a wall to keep them out, I would feel uncertain about my future, my business, and my residency. unsafe. I think it's completely reasonable in this case.
- minimaxir 10y ago
  For posterity, here is the beginning of the referenced Facebook thread (also linked to by the founder on Twitter): https://imgur.com/a/dWgdV https://imgur.com/a/dWgdV
- tptacek 10y ago
  ... you say with absolutely no evidence, based on a truncated screenshot of a public Facebook feed.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- pcwalton 10y ago
  Surprise! When you publicly mock and scorn someone who was privately expressing fear that the person who will soon become the most powerful man in the world is about to use state-sanctioned violence to force you out of the country (to say nothing of the unrepudiated extrajudicial violence regularly dished out by his supporters), then you are in fact making people feel unsafe! The literal, dictionary definition of "unsafe"!
sjtgraham 10y ago
> You're entitled to free speech, you're not entitled to a captive ear to hear it. Ironically a captive ear is exactly what SJW's demand, and if you fail to oblige you're a (delete as appropriate) straight/white/male/able-bodied/cis-gendered/dudebro who is "part of the problem" and "literally Hitler". I'm so disappointed in how partisan YC has become, capitulating completely to prevailing meme of SJWs. It's becoming less about "make something people want" and more "care about what people think".
- RickS 10y ago
  The thing you're talking about is, regardless of its accuracy, distant from this situation.
- tlrobinson 10y ago
  > I'm so disappointed in how partisan YC has become, capitulating completely to prevailing meme of SJWs. This had little to do with politics. The guy mocked a YC founder who expressed fear for his safety, and called another YC founder a "coward", among other things. And just a couple weeks ago YC didn't capitulate to demands to cut ties with Peter Thiel over his support of Trump. What other instances are you referring to?
kapitza 10y ago
Usually when people make this argument they're wrong, but not in this case. I'm disturbed by OP's low-quality trolling. When you're a dissident or ideological minority in any context, it's absolutely essential at all times to be the kindest, gentlest, sweetest person in the room. That way, when they ban you for "feeling unsafe," it's obvious to everyone what's going on. Obviously OP wasn't actually a danger to anyone. That's ridiculous. But there isn't any world where you can be a dissident and also be a dick, and get away with it.
- angersock 10y ago
  > But there isn't any world where you can be a dissident and also be a dick, and get away with it. Unless you're Peter Thiel or rich or connected, right? :|
  - kapitza 10y ago
    That's actually the point. You've defined "being a dick" as "supporting Emmanuel Goldstein, who wants to reverse all the great work the Party has done for the proles." I understand how you get there, logically. But perhaps Emmanuel Goldstein actually thinks the Party is bad for the proles? Maybe it's not that he hates the Party, because he hates the proles? Maybe you could ask him why he hates the Party, which as we know has done so much for the proles? But if Emmanuel Goldstein is actually an asshole in the normal sense of the word -- someone who's rude and unpleasant to the actual people around him -- it's hard to argue that there's a difference between these very different concepts. Pretty much guarantee you Peter Thiel is never, ever rude and unpleasant to the people around him. That's the difference.
    - angersock 10y ago
      If you'd like another example, try Steve Jobs. Or Bill Gates. Or Mark Zuckerberg. Your position isn't tenable in the face of history, unfortunately.
  - pen2l 10y ago
    I am no fan of Peter Thiel, but Peter Thiel did not scoop to this level of low-quality trolling. Going forward, we need to try to get along with Trump supporters -- the portion that isn't deplorable. Supporters like your general joe shmo whose main grievance is being left behind in the new economy, who is unable for whatever reason to catch up. We do not need to make an effort to reconcile with the racists and /b/ crowd who constantly parrot misogynistic and racist things. I'm no fan of Thiel but it seems that he's aware what kind of platform he is standing on -- when he gave the big speech he said nothing offensive per se, he's not preaching hate like this guy is. This Torbe guy is clearly needlessly inflammatory and confrontational, he is not the kind of guy that makes a community go forward and advance. YC is so much better off without him. What's happened has happened, we really need to start thinking about the future. My big wish is that Thiel can do some good, like: bring nuance to the Trump crowd. He should condemn the hateful part of Trump supporters like this guy. sama or pg, if you're out there: can you please tell him to do this? Thiel will win me over if he clearly and openly condemns the racist and misogynistic part of his party.
nailer 10y ago
Does 'safe' actually mean 'safe' or does it mean something else now? How would a sane adult feel like they were in some kind of danger by someone wanting stronger controls on immigration?
tptacek 10y ago
He edited the screenshot to exclude the specific concern that kicked this off.

by RickS 10y ago

atom-morgan 10y ago

"feel unsafe" has been more subjective and ridiculous than ever.

mundo 10y ago
"unsafe" has become a bit of a buzzword in the interminable red-vs-blue wars, but everything else about this would've played out the same way if she had said he was "inappropriate" or "unprofessional". Looks to me like free speech is still free and trolling at work still has consequences and there's not much to see here unless you're personally involved with one of the companies.
- seemingly 10y ago
  I both disagree and dislike both Trump and his supporters. Yet, I realize if you want to diversity of opinion like YC says it wants you can't throw people out when they annoy you. Diverse political discussion among laymen where no one gets annoyed essentially doesn't exist. Peoples opinions follow their perspective, what they understand and what they care about. Just as I take offense to what Trump says people who like Trump will take offense when people say he's a populist, racist or sexist. They will get frustrated and express themselves in ways that aren't productive, but also don't seem that bad to them since they don't think what Trump says is bad. I've excluded people for less, but then I haven't as YC asked sometimes awkward people to be stressed out for a long period of time while saying that diversity of opinion is valued.
  - zo1 10y ago
    People with opposing opinions to the current pervasive narrative are for the most part, part of a minority (yes). For most of us one miss-step or one bad outburst because we're frustrated, and then you're fired (or kicked out). Because you cross that "imaginary" line between dissenting but tolerable opinion and into the "we can now legally and without consequence say you're abusive and shut your opinion down by firing/excluding/arresting you". That's the problem with faux-free speech. To be fair, I think companies and individuals should have a right to disassociate with anyone for any reason they choose (yes including the bad reasons). But they should at least be honest about it, rather than hiding behind some veil of "it's abusive behaviour". Just admit you don't like the opinion before it cross that line, and purge appropriately.
RickS 10y ago
> "feel unsafe" has been more subjective and ridiculous than ever. Sure, in the sense of the "liberals and safe spaces" macro topic, I'll concede that. But YC is big on bringing in founders from other countries and giving them the tools to be successful in America. In those scenarios YC is the foundation of their life in the country. Funding, documentation, network, etc. To have voices in the group that's supposed to help you start talking about "build the wall" and deporting people, especially in the context of the larger Trump political movement? Yeah, if a company paid for me to come to a foreign land and do business, but members started talking about deporting all the guys like me and building a wall to keep them out, I would feel uncertain about my future, my business, and my residency. unsafe. I think it's completely reasonable in this case.
minimaxir 10y ago
For posterity, here is the beginning of the referenced Facebook thread (also linked to by the founder on Twitter): https://imgur.com/a/dWgdV https://imgur.com/a/dWgdV
tptacek 10y ago
... you say with absolutely no evidence, based on a truncated screenshot of a public Facebook feed.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pcwalton 10y ago
Surprise! When you publicly mock and scorn someone who was privately expressing fear that the person who will soon become the most powerful man in the world is about to use state-sanctioned violence to force you out of the country (to say nothing of the unrepudiated extrajudicial violence regularly dished out by his supporters), then you are in fact making people feel unsafe! The literal, dictionary definition of "unsafe"!

sjtgraham 10y ago

> You're entitled to free speech, you're not entitled to a captive ear to hear it. Ironically a captive ear is exactly what SJW's demand, and if you fail to oblige you're a (delete as appropriate) straight/white/male/able-bodied/cis-gendered/dudebro who is "part of the problem" and "literally Hitler". I'm so disappointed in how partisan YC has become, capitulating completely to prevailing meme of SJWs. It's becoming less about "make something people want" and more "care about what people think".

RickS 10y ago
The thing you're talking about is, regardless of its accuracy, distant from this situation.
tlrobinson 10y ago
> I'm so disappointed in how partisan YC has become, capitulating completely to prevailing meme of SJWs. This had little to do with politics. The guy mocked a YC founder who expressed fear for his safety, and called another YC founder a "coward", among other things. And just a couple weeks ago YC didn't capitulate to demands to cut ties with Peter Thiel over his support of Trump. What other instances are you referring to?

kapitza 10y ago

Usually when people make this argument they're wrong, but not in this case. I'm disturbed by OP's low-quality trolling. When you're a dissident or ideological minority in any context, it's absolutely essential at all times to be the kindest, gentlest, sweetest person in the room. That way, when they ban you for "feeling unsafe," it's obvious to everyone what's going on. Obviously OP wasn't actually a danger to anyone. That's ridiculous. But there isn't any world where you can be a dissident and also be a dick, and get away with it.

angersock 10y ago
> But there isn't any world where you can be a dissident and also be a dick, and get away with it. Unless you're Peter Thiel or rich or connected, right? :|
- kapitza 10y ago
  That's actually the point. You've defined "being a dick" as "supporting Emmanuel Goldstein, who wants to reverse all the great work the Party has done for the proles." I understand how you get there, logically. But perhaps Emmanuel Goldstein actually thinks the Party is bad for the proles? Maybe it's not that he hates the Party, because he hates the proles? Maybe you could ask him why he hates the Party, which as we know has done so much for the proles? But if Emmanuel Goldstein is actually an asshole in the normal sense of the word -- someone who's rude and unpleasant to the actual people around him -- it's hard to argue that there's a difference between these very different concepts. Pretty much guarantee you Peter Thiel is never, ever rude and unpleasant to the people around him. That's the difference.
  - angersock 10y ago
    If you'd like another example, try Steve Jobs. Or Bill Gates. Or Mark Zuckerberg. Your position isn't tenable in the face of history, unfortunately.
- pen2l 10y ago
  I am no fan of Peter Thiel, but Peter Thiel did not scoop to this level of low-quality trolling. Going forward, we need to try to get along with Trump supporters -- the portion that isn't deplorable. Supporters like your general joe shmo whose main grievance is being left behind in the new economy, who is unable for whatever reason to catch up. We do not need to make an effort to reconcile with the racists and /b/ crowd who constantly parrot misogynistic and racist things. I'm no fan of Thiel but it seems that he's aware what kind of platform he is standing on -- when he gave the big speech he said nothing offensive per se, he's not preaching hate like this guy is. This Torbe guy is clearly needlessly inflammatory and confrontational, he is not the kind of guy that makes a community go forward and advance. YC is so much better off without him. What's happened has happened, we really need to start thinking about the future. My big wish is that Thiel can do some good, like: bring nuance to the Trump crowd. He should condemn the hateful part of Trump supporters like this guy. sama or pg, if you're out there: can you please tell him to do this? Thiel will win me over if he clearly and openly condemns the racist and misogynistic part of his party.

nailer 10y ago

Does 'safe' actually mean 'safe' or does it mean something else now? How would a sane adult feel like they were in some kind of danger by someone wanting stronger controls on immigration?

tptacek 10y ago

He edited the screenshot to exclude the specific concern that kicked this off.