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It has also greatly benefited America during the whole post-war period. It is not a coincidence that the world's consumers are spending much of their money on p

It has also greatly benefited America during the whole post-war period. It is not a coincidence that the world's consumers are spending much of their money on products from American companies. Whether the American lower class gets a share of the profits is an other question of course. This goes for tech too. American companies like Uber, Netflix, Facebook, Google, Microsoft and Apple have been able dominate most of the world market. In a protectionist world they will be locked out, just like they are in China today.

mcv 10y ago
Yeah, whatever you may think of the American hegemony since WW2, that's what made America the #1 world power. Drop that, and the US will just be one of many. And on the one hand, I think that might be good; I'm not a fan of hegemony and imperialism. But for all its faults, the US is at least a democracy, unlike Russia and China. As a European, I strongly prefer American hegemony over Russian hegemony. But maybe it's time for the EU to finally stand on its own feet and take up the leadership of the free world. Hopefully more benevolently than the US, although recent events don't look very hopeful there either.
- brianwawok 10y ago
  With brexit doesn't seem that likely either
  - mcv 10y ago
    Brexit could actually work out well for a more united EU. The UK has always been one of the biggest opponents of further European integration. Without the UK, it might actually happen.
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      That is a theory I had not heard. And the economy will not be missed, even when trying to fix the ships that are Greece and Italy and Spain? At some point it seems like Germany can't have the only economy propping up the rest of the EU
      - mcv 10y ago
        Closer economic integration would definitely solve the problem of Greece and other weak economies. Every country has their weaker provinces that would have sick economies if left on their own, but they work fine because they're part of a country with an economic policy that takes care of the entire country. The US has plenty of poorer states, for example, and they get way more federal money. Every country has areas like that, and takes care of them to some degree. But Greece has to fend for itself, and has lost the means to fend for itself, because they're not in control of their monetary police. They're unable to devalue their coin as they should. But if they were to become part of a more integrated EU economic policy, the EU would eat up their debt without blinking, and invest in Greece to fix the problem, which is currently apparently against the rules.
- sprafa 10y ago
  Europe is too divided, Russia will most likely rule over Europe. Look out for a Russia backed victory of Le Pen in France and AfD in Germany. If that happens the reorganisation will be total.
  - mcv 10y ago
    While I agree that the EU is divided, I doubt Russia will rule over Europe. Russia is a lot weaker than it was during the Cold War, and Europe is a lot stronger. A lot. That said, Putin plays a subtle game, and his ties to various European extremist groups is certainly cause for worry. He will continue to destabilize Europe, but a lot more than that is needed for Russia to rule over Europe. Though if the EU is sufficiently divided, the Baltics are definitely within reach.
- mschuster91 10y ago
  > But maybe it's time for the EU to finally stand on its own feet and take up the leadership of the free world As a German, I don't see that happening. The EU is beginning to collapse outright (Brexit, the way Europe still treats Greece and the way Europe leaves Germany stranded with the refugees, esp. Eastern Europe) and even if the EU manages to stay together as an union, the trend to nationalism and right-wing populism is worrying: - in France, le Pen/Front National has a non-small chance of winning the elections in 2017 - Hungary with Orban basically has a fascist in power - the situation in Poland doesn't look much better (Kaczynski nationalist government, 100k right-wing demonstrants marched in Warsow today, https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute-in-europa/videos/warschau-demo-rechte-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute-in-europa/videos/warsch...) - Italy is under threat from the M5S party led by Beppe Grillo, they want to exit at least the Euro currency, and the general situation is unstable - in Greece left-wing Tsipras is in a coalition with right-wing ANEL - Germany has, mainly fueled by the refugee situation, seen a rise of both a nationalist party (AfD) in parliaments with people predicting 10-20% at the Bundestag elections as well as massive violence against refugees and left-wing people. - Turkey isn't part of the EU, but I think that the situation in Turkey could explode into civil war sooner than later. Or into a Hitler-level dictatorship. And should it come to war... well I don't believe that the EU stands a flying chance against the Russians. German tank troops practice with broomsticks instead of blank cartridges (I'm serious, https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article137549045/Bundeswehr-zieht-mit-Besenstielen-ins-Manoever.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article137549045/Bun...), the new NH90 marine helicopter isn't licensed to fly over sea, and the A400M transporter jet isn't remotely useful right now. Europe without US protection is a nightmare, and I'm afraid that at least Russia will exploit this. Especially as no country in the EU except maybe France actually has the capability or will to fight.
  - rasz_pl 10y ago
    >leaves Germany stranded with the refugees, esp. Eastern Europe you wanted them, you got them >100k right-wing demonstrants marched in Warsow today its called Independence Day and is a national holiday https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Independence_Day_(Poland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Independence_Day_(Pol... We celebrate independence from being occupied by YOUR country among other parties. >Especially as no country in the EU except maybe France actually has the capability or will to fight sure, like in 1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal#1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal#1939 http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/polandbetrayal.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/pol...
- pmontra 10y ago
  I wish we would, but we (Europe) are fragmented and each country is an easy target for the wills of the larger powers. It's easy to play each EU country against the other, not necessarily by bribes but by exploiting all the conflicting interests and the lack of a central authority. Try to do that with US states without the blessing of Washington. And in time of danger every country becomes more egoistical, as the many recent crisis demonstrated (bonds, migrants, etc). So China and Russia will benefit of a US downsizing and Europe will get the worst of it. The only way out would be ejecting every country not willing to really merge into a strong political union, make the United States of Europe, get back some of the other countries when they'll be willing to give away their sovereignty. Problem is: there are zero countries willing to give away their sovereignty now. National political leaders are not going to risk their authority and privileges and run for a European government which only a few of them will get into.

mcv 10y ago

Yeah, whatever you may think of the American hegemony since WW2, that's what made America the #1 world power. Drop that, and the US will just be one of many. And on the one hand, I think that might be good; I'm not a fan of hegemony and imperialism. But for all its faults, the US is at least a democracy, unlike Russia and China. As a European, I strongly prefer American hegemony over Russian hegemony. But maybe it's time for the EU to finally stand on its own feet and take up the leadership of the free world. Hopefully more benevolently than the US, although recent events don't look very hopeful there either.

brianwawok 10y ago
With brexit doesn't seem that likely either
- mcv 10y ago
  Brexit could actually work out well for a more united EU. The UK has always been one of the biggest opponents of further European integration. Without the UK, it might actually happen.
  - brianwawok 10y ago
    That is a theory I had not heard. And the economy will not be missed, even when trying to fix the ships that are Greece and Italy and Spain? At some point it seems like Germany can't have the only economy propping up the rest of the EU
    - mcv 10y ago
      Closer economic integration would definitely solve the problem of Greece and other weak economies. Every country has their weaker provinces that would have sick economies if left on their own, but they work fine because they're part of a country with an economic policy that takes care of the entire country. The US has plenty of poorer states, for example, and they get way more federal money. Every country has areas like that, and takes care of them to some degree. But Greece has to fend for itself, and has lost the means to fend for itself, because they're not in control of their monetary police. They're unable to devalue their coin as they should. But if they were to become part of a more integrated EU economic policy, the EU would eat up their debt without blinking, and invest in Greece to fix the problem, which is currently apparently against the rules.
sprafa 10y ago
Europe is too divided, Russia will most likely rule over Europe. Look out for a Russia backed victory of Le Pen in France and AfD in Germany. If that happens the reorganisation will be total.
- mcv 10y ago
  While I agree that the EU is divided, I doubt Russia will rule over Europe. Russia is a lot weaker than it was during the Cold War, and Europe is a lot stronger. A lot. That said, Putin plays a subtle game, and his ties to various European extremist groups is certainly cause for worry. He will continue to destabilize Europe, but a lot more than that is needed for Russia to rule over Europe. Though if the EU is sufficiently divided, the Baltics are definitely within reach.
mschuster91 10y ago
> But maybe it's time for the EU to finally stand on its own feet and take up the leadership of the free world As a German, I don't see that happening. The EU is beginning to collapse outright (Brexit, the way Europe still treats Greece and the way Europe leaves Germany stranded with the refugees, esp. Eastern Europe) and even if the EU manages to stay together as an union, the trend to nationalism and right-wing populism is worrying: - in France, le Pen/Front National has a non-small chance of winning the elections in 2017 - Hungary with Orban basically has a fascist in power - the situation in Poland doesn't look much better (Kaczynski nationalist government, 100k right-wing demonstrants marched in Warsow today, https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute-in-europa/videos/warschau-demo-rechte-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/heute-in-europa/videos/warsch...) - Italy is under threat from the M5S party led by Beppe Grillo, they want to exit at least the Euro currency, and the general situation is unstable - in Greece left-wing Tsipras is in a coalition with right-wing ANEL - Germany has, mainly fueled by the refugee situation, seen a rise of both a nationalist party (AfD) in parliaments with people predicting 10-20% at the Bundestag elections as well as massive violence against refugees and left-wing people. - Turkey isn't part of the EU, but I think that the situation in Turkey could explode into civil war sooner than later. Or into a Hitler-level dictatorship. And should it come to war... well I don't believe that the EU stands a flying chance against the Russians. German tank troops practice with broomsticks instead of blank cartridges (I'm serious, https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article137549045/Bundeswehr-zieht-mit-Besenstielen-ins-Manoever.html https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article137549045/Bun...), the new NH90 marine helicopter isn't licensed to fly over sea, and the A400M transporter jet isn't remotely useful right now. Europe without US protection is a nightmare, and I'm afraid that at least Russia will exploit this. Especially as no country in the EU except maybe France actually has the capability or will to fight.
- rasz_pl 10y ago
  >leaves Germany stranded with the refugees, esp. Eastern Europe you wanted them, you got them >100k right-wing demonstrants marched in Warsow today its called Independence Day and is a national holiday https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Independence_Day_(Poland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Independence_Day_(Pol... We celebrate independence from being occupied by YOUR country among other parties. >Especially as no country in the EU except maybe France actually has the capability or will to fight sure, like in 1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal#1939 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal#1939 http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/polandbetrayal.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/History/pol...
pmontra 10y ago
I wish we would, but we (Europe) are fragmented and each country is an easy target for the wills of the larger powers. It's easy to play each EU country against the other, not necessarily by bribes but by exploiting all the conflicting interests and the lack of a central authority. Try to do that with US states without the blessing of Washington. And in time of danger every country becomes more egoistical, as the many recent crisis demonstrated (bonds, migrants, etc). So China and Russia will benefit of a US downsizing and Europe will get the worst of it. The only way out would be ejecting every country not willing to really merge into a strong political union, make the United States of Europe, get back some of the other countries when they'll be willing to give away their sovereignty. Problem is: there are zero countries willing to give away their sovereignty now. National political leaders are not going to risk their authority and privileges and run for a European government which only a few of them will get into.