4 ms·

The spitballs are because what America (and the world) desperately needs right now is an opposition party. The centrist (actually, center-right, or even just ri

The spitballs are because what America (and the world) desperately needs right now is an opposition party. The centrist (actually, center-right, or even just right wing, compared to European politics) Democratic party has no power against right wing extremist ideologues. If the response of leading Democrats, thus far, is any indicator, there will be literally no effective opposition to Trump and the GOP leadership. This is why progressives hate the Democrats so much lately.

ajross 10y ago
Whatever. Still seems misdirected to me given the situation we're in. Being right isn't being helpful. People are legitimately terrified.
- SwellJoe 10y ago
  It's not about being right. It's about whether the Democratic party, as it stands today, has the guts to aggressively take on Trump and Republicans, and I think history has shown us that they do not. So, the Democratic party, today, is a party that people don't really like all that much, and has mostly driven straight down the middle when Republicans push extremist right wing agendas. So, over and over, when the chips fall, the result is far to the right of center. And, Democrats congratulate themselves on their willingness to compromise (unlike those awful Republicans, who are just so stubborn). Even when Republicans haven't owned all of the branches of government (which is the state we've now found ourselves in), legislation has ended up tilting to the right...because for all their flaws, they know how opposition works, even if you don't have the majority.
  - ajross 10y ago
    You can drive that knife as much as you want, if it makes you feel better. I'm an upper middle class white man whose gonna do just fine in Trump's america. It still doesn't change whose ass is going to sit in the oval office, nor do much to help our neighbors waiting for the deportation squads to arrive. Tell me when you're through with the stabbing and want to work productively again WITH me to fix this. I'll be waiting.
    - SwellJoe 10y ago
      What does that work look like, to you?
    - RCortex 10y ago
      You just characterized this guy who hasn't said a single violent thing as some knife-stabber, you're part of the obstacle preventing us all from working together.
      - ajross 10y ago
        Just keep at it. My bleeding centrist establishment abdomen will be here all week. Let me know when you're done. (Edit just to clarify the sarcasm, as I feel you won't get it if I don't: if you check upthread, the metaphor I picked originally was "spitballs". I escalated for effect when it became clear that SwellJoe was more interested in yelling at the corrupt DNC establishment elites than in discussing what to do about a Trump presidency, which was the original topic.)
        SwellJoe 10y ago
        "SwellJoe was more interested in yelling at the corrupt DNC establishment elites" What have I said that is in a "yelling" tone? Please point it out to me, so I can adjust my tone. I'm speaking the truth as I see it, as clearly as I understand it. The Democratic party lost big this year. It was not just the presidential race. Republicans swept the board, at the national, state, and local level, including in places they shouldn't have won. If you believe staying the course is the right course of action for the DNC and the party in general, I believe the onus is on you to defend that position; there are people who have tried to bring the party back to being a grassroots party of the working class (among others, of course), and have been repeatedly shushed, shunned, dismissed as being "extremist", etc. So, the working classes have spoken and embraced a fascist who, at least, speaks to them where they are and acknowledges the pain they're feeling. That he can get away with giving scapegoats rather than solutions is predictable in the absence of consistent messaging and action from the Democrats on those same issues. The argument can no longer be made that the center lane is the pragmatic approach; though one could certainly argue that there's room for center-left Democrats in red state elections, and I would even agree with that and support that. But, the party has no passion left in it; it's been shoved out by party functionaries who cling to power within the party, all the while it sinks further below water. Losing (big and wide) is not pragmatic.
mercer 10y ago
Oddly enough, despite the fact that the Dutch political climate is more left and quite different from the US, I'd say that many 'progressives' here also hate 'traditionally their' parties (usually Labor and Greens and the like). The term 'regressive left' is becoming more common in my surroundings, and ever since Pim Fortuyn (2002, the precursor to our Dutch version of Trump, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense) there's been a growing sense that our 'left' not only lacks an answer to populism, it's part of the 'evil neoliberal establishment 1% elite etc.'. There's a sentiment around me that Labor/greens/D66 (center-left democrats?) are mostly an intellectual elite that doesn't understand the problems we face. They call for integration and multiculturalism, but don't feel any of the adverse effects or problems that result. And somehow they seem way too much into privatizing things, dismantling our welfare state, and general Neoliberal-tasting things. Now, I don't know enough to have a very strong opinion on all of this. But I do sort of get the intense hatred of the 'intellectual left elite'. It feels degrading and shitty to be told that you're wrong and your problems are bullshit and you're being manipulated by a populist, and you're a racist, and all that, and I can totally see how that could make one respond with a big middle finger and a vote for exactly those populists. Even if just out of spite. And even regardless of the consequences. Of course I have no answer to this problem. I'm a well-educated, left-leaning, academically-minded, LGBT-affiliated white man and I'll probably do fine no matter what. I feel the way forward for me is to start engaging more with those who feel like they need to 'fuck shit up' with their vote, and to try and properly understand why all these things are happening that I didn't predict and that don't make sense to me. But dear God I'm trying my best to bite my tongue and not blindly disparage Trump or our own populist movements. Because 1) it seems counter-productive, and 2) a surprising number of my highly-educated, intellectual-type friends are in favor of those movements, so I can't afford not taking them seriously. And I suppose 3) most people are smarter than they seem, including the really dumb ones.

ajross 10y ago

Whatever. Still seems misdirected to me given the situation we're in. Being right isn't being helpful. People are legitimately terrified.

SwellJoe 10y ago
It's not about being right. It's about whether the Democratic party, as it stands today, has the guts to aggressively take on Trump and Republicans, and I think history has shown us that they do not. So, the Democratic party, today, is a party that people don't really like all that much, and has mostly driven straight down the middle when Republicans push extremist right wing agendas. So, over and over, when the chips fall, the result is far to the right of center. And, Democrats congratulate themselves on their willingness to compromise (unlike those awful Republicans, who are just so stubborn). Even when Republicans haven't owned all of the branches of government (which is the state we've now found ourselves in), legislation has ended up tilting to the right...because for all their flaws, they know how opposition works, even if you don't have the majority.
- ajross 10y ago
  You can drive that knife as much as you want, if it makes you feel better. I'm an upper middle class white man whose gonna do just fine in Trump's america. It still doesn't change whose ass is going to sit in the oval office, nor do much to help our neighbors waiting for the deportation squads to arrive. Tell me when you're through with the stabbing and want to work productively again WITH me to fix this. I'll be waiting.
  - SwellJoe 10y ago
    What does that work look like, to you?
  - RCortex 10y ago
    You just characterized this guy who hasn't said a single violent thing as some knife-stabber, you're part of the obstacle preventing us all from working together.
    - ajross 10y ago
      Just keep at it. My bleeding centrist establishment abdomen will be here all week. Let me know when you're done. (Edit just to clarify the sarcasm, as I feel you won't get it if I don't: if you check upthread, the metaphor I picked originally was "spitballs". I escalated for effect when it became clear that SwellJoe was more interested in yelling at the corrupt DNC establishment elites than in discussing what to do about a Trump presidency, which was the original topic.)
      - SwellJoe 10y ago
        "SwellJoe was more interested in yelling at the corrupt DNC establishment elites" What have I said that is in a "yelling" tone? Please point it out to me, so I can adjust my tone. I'm speaking the truth as I see it, as clearly as I understand it. The Democratic party lost big this year. It was not just the presidential race. Republicans swept the board, at the national, state, and local level, including in places they shouldn't have won. If you believe staying the course is the right course of action for the DNC and the party in general, I believe the onus is on you to defend that position; there are people who have tried to bring the party back to being a grassroots party of the working class (among others, of course), and have been repeatedly shushed, shunned, dismissed as being "extremist", etc. So, the working classes have spoken and embraced a fascist who, at least, speaks to them where they are and acknowledges the pain they're feeling. That he can get away with giving scapegoats rather than solutions is predictable in the absence of consistent messaging and action from the Democrats on those same issues. The argument can no longer be made that the center lane is the pragmatic approach; though one could certainly argue that there's room for center-left Democrats in red state elections, and I would even agree with that and support that. But, the party has no passion left in it; it's been shoved out by party functionaries who cling to power within the party, all the while it sinks further below water. Losing (big and wide) is not pragmatic.

mercer 10y ago

Oddly enough, despite the fact that the Dutch political climate is more left and quite different from the US, I'd say that many 'progressives' here also hate 'traditionally their' parties (usually Labor and Greens and the like). The term 'regressive left' is becoming more common in my surroundings, and ever since Pim Fortuyn (2002, the precursor to our Dutch version of Trump, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense) there's been a growing sense that our 'left' not only lacks an answer to populism, it's part of the 'evil neoliberal establishment 1% elite etc.'. There's a sentiment around me that Labor/greens/D66 (center-left democrats?) are mostly an intellectual elite that doesn't understand the problems we face. They call for integration and multiculturalism, but don't feel any of the adverse effects or problems that result. And somehow they seem way too much into privatizing things, dismantling our welfare state, and general Neoliberal-tasting things. Now, I don't know enough to have a very strong opinion on all of this. But I do sort of get the intense hatred of the 'intellectual left elite'. It feels degrading and shitty to be told that you're wrong and your problems are bullshit and you're being manipulated by a populist, and you're a racist, and all that, and I can totally see how that could make one respond with a big middle finger and a vote for exactly those populists. Even if just out of spite. And even regardless of the consequences. Of course I have no answer to this problem. I'm a well-educated, left-leaning, academically-minded, LGBT-affiliated white man and I'll probably do fine no matter what. I feel the way forward for me is to start engaging more with those who feel like they need to 'fuck shit up' with their vote, and to try and properly understand why all these things are happening that I didn't predict and that don't make sense to me. But dear God I'm trying my best to bite my tongue and not blindly disparage Trump or our own populist movements. Because 1) it seems counter-productive, and 2) a surprising number of my highly-educated, intellectual-type friends are in favor of those movements, so I can't afford not taking them seriously. And I suppose 3) most people are smarter than they seem, including the really dumb ones.