4 ms·

I don't disagree, but that does not change the fact that we will never bring manufacturing back in that way.

by lsadam0 10y ago

cylinder 10y ago
Look at Germany, rather than throw their manufacturing sector under the bus in favor of financial engineering and management consulting, they continuously upgrade their manufacturing culture. So maybe they don't make shoes there but they are building the robots that the rest of the world is using to make shoes and cars. You need skilled workers for that and you need to constantly be reinvesting in your people. The neoliberal approach throws your population under the bus as quickly as possible as they are not deemed worthy of investment.
- fludlight 10y ago
  Companies that make the robots that make things outsourced their robot production to China a few years ago so it's only a matter of time before the Chinese steal that tech, too.
- harrumph 10y ago
  >The neoliberal approach throws your population under the bus as quickly as possible as they are not deemed worthy of investment. Absolutely. In fact, that's not just neoliberalism, it's capitalism generally. The fundamental interests of the producers and of the persons above them who legally appropriate that which is produced will never meet. Cooperative ownership and governance of the means of production is the only way out of this problem. Not ESOP, not profit sharing -- only worker ownership.
  - pc2g4d 10y ago
    What I don't understand is why these huge numbers of unemployed workers (which must depress wages to the minimum) aren't like catnip to labor-intensive industries. It's like having our own little China/Vietnam/Bangladesh within our own borders. Is the minimum wage too high or something?
    - harrumph 10y ago
      >Is the minimum wage too high or something? I would ask in response: why does anyone still believe that the supply of something, rather than the demand of it, overdetermines the price of a thing? This seems at best an incomplete worldview. At worst, it's the epitome of thoroughly discredited supply-side market theology. There is unemployment because there is no demand for labor in these areas largely because the main employer in the area decided to pad profits by getting labor supplied from brutally poor people living in unregulated nations.
      - pc2g4d 10y ago
        But if the employer could pay less for labor in the U.S. then perhaps they would have kept the jobs here. That's what I meant by asking if the minimum wage is "too high". This isn't related to supply-side economics. Just the basic idea that price floors (like minimum wages) can exclude the price point at which supply and demand would be in equilibrium, specifically by suppressing demand by keeping the price artificially high.
        harrumph 10y ago
        >But if the employer could pay less for labor in the U.S. then perhaps they would have kept the jobs here. The notion of a sustained equilibrium between supply and demand is a real-world fiction to begin with, but even if it was not, we can never forget that fulfilling employers' true demand for labor includes putting children to work in coal mines and chaining humans for sale. True demand for labor is unfulfillable, so I think we have to recognize that using pricing mechanisms alone to frame what are fundamentally commercial and political questions is a mistake for all concerned.

I don't disagree, but that does not change the fact that we will never bring manufacturing back in that way.

by lsadam0 10y ago

I don't disagree, but that does not change the fact that we will never bring manufacturing back in that way.

Look at Germany, rather than throw their manufacturing sector under the bus in favor of financial engineering and management consulting, they continuously upgrade their manufacturing culture. So maybe they don't make shoes there but they are building the robots that the rest of the world is using to make shoes and cars. You need skilled workers for that and you need to constantly be reinvesting in your people. The neoliberal approach throws your population under the bus as quickly as possible as they are not deemed worthy of investment.

fludlight 10y ago
Companies that make the robots that make things outsourced their robot production to China a few years ago so it's only a matter of time before the Chinese steal that tech, too.
harrumph 10y ago
>The neoliberal approach throws your population under the bus as quickly as possible as they are not deemed worthy of investment. Absolutely. In fact, that's not just neoliberalism, it's capitalism generally. The fundamental interests of the producers and of the persons above them who legally appropriate that which is produced will never meet. Cooperative ownership and governance of the means of production is the only way out of this problem. Not ESOP, not profit sharing -- only worker ownership.
- pc2g4d 10y ago
  What I don't understand is why these huge numbers of unemployed workers (which must depress wages to the minimum) aren't like catnip to labor-intensive industries. It's like having our own little China/Vietnam/Bangladesh within our own borders. Is the minimum wage too high or something?
  - harrumph 10y ago
    >Is the minimum wage too high or something? I would ask in response: why does anyone still believe that the supply of something, rather than the demand of it, overdetermines the price of a thing? This seems at best an incomplete worldview. At worst, it's the epitome of thoroughly discredited supply-side market theology. There is unemployment because there is no demand for labor in these areas largely because the main employer in the area decided to pad profits by getting labor supplied from brutally poor people living in unregulated nations.
    - pc2g4d 10y ago
      But if the employer could pay less for labor in the U.S. then perhaps they would have kept the jobs here. That's what I meant by asking if the minimum wage is "too high". This isn't related to supply-side economics. Just the basic idea that price floors (like minimum wages) can exclude the price point at which supply and demand would be in equilibrium, specifically by suppressing demand by keeping the price artificially high.
      - harrumph 10y ago
        >But if the employer could pay less for labor in the U.S. then perhaps they would have kept the jobs here. The notion of a sustained equilibrium between supply and demand is a real-world fiction to begin with, but even if it was not, we can never forget that fulfilling employers' true demand for labor includes putting children to work in coal mines and chaining humans for sale. True demand for labor is unfulfillable, so I think we have to recognize that using pricing mechanisms alone to frame what are fundamentally commercial and political questions is a mistake for all concerned.