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Is there a medical person here who can help me out with this? Take these excerpts from the article: "He suggested using the newly invented stethoscope to list

Is there a medical person here who can help me out with this? Take these excerpts from the article: "He suggested using the newly invented stethoscope to listen for a heartbeat – if the doctor didn’t hear anything for two minutes, they could be safely buried." "An electrical engineer from Brooklyn, New York, had been investigating why people die after they’ve been electrocuted – and wondered if the right voltage might also jolt them back to life." "Starting in the 1950s, doctors across the globe began discovering that some of their patients, who they had previously considered only comatose, in fact had no brain activity at all." "They had discovered the ‘beating-heart cadavers’, people whose bodies were alive though their brains were dead." "In some cases, their hearts kept beating and their organs kept functioning for a further 14 years – for one cadaver, this strange afterlife lasted two decades." Now... If the brain were dead (by my understanding of a 'dead' organ - its cells have died), wouldn't the brain start either decomposing or being absorbed by the body? If that happens, it's a pretty clear indication that the brain is truly dead. But if it doesn't happen, doesn't that mean the brain cells are still alive (just not communicating for some reason)? And in that case (living cells with a blank EEG), couldn't there be a way to jump-start their communication, as was previously discovered with hearts? I'm sure that I'm completely ignorant of some critical factor, and look forward to your thorough discussion of it...

mordocai 10y ago
I am a layperson as well but as I understand it the brain cells have not died in a brain dead patient, rather there is no sign of communication as you said. As far as any thoughts of restarting communication, I have no idea.
- comboy 10y ago
  Article suggests that the cells get destroyed: > If their efforts are stalled by a lack of oxygen, neurons are rapidly inundated with ions which build to toxic levels, causing irreversible damage. I mean, we may get into a discussion when does the brain cell die, like what if it still is a living cell, but can't act as a neuron anymore.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    "Damage" != "dead" (at the cellular level). But it can be sufficient to keep the brain from functioning other than at an exceptionally basic level. E.g., no voluntary movement, speech, understanding, consciousness.
jawilson2 10y ago
Brain death usually only occurs after severe injury, either from trauma or from asphyxiation. Large portions of the brain ARE dead tissue; search for Terri Schiavo's MRI (or CT). Most of the skull is filled with fluid. On the other hand, rarely comatose or persistent vegetative patients do wake up, or, more frighteningly, were awake and aware for years. I did some of my PhD research with a person who had a brain-stem stroke in 1980, who lived in a care center, and they didn't realize he was still awake and trying to communicate until 1992.
- diggernet 10y ago
  Interesting. So it sounds like after some period of time, an MRI or CT should be able to show that a 'beating-heart cadaver' is truly brain dead. My understanding of comatose/vegetative patients is that it is a different case, where an EEG would actually show some activity. Is that correct? As for the patient you mention... Wow! Fascinating! What is the definition of 'awake' in his case, how did they not know, and how did they discover??
  - notanote 10y ago
    A mostly fluid filled skull is not an indication of brain death, in fact there are cases of people with most of their brains spread in a thin layer against their skull. [1] The name for aware but apparently comatose cases is locked-in syndrome. [2] A nightmare scenario for sure. [1] http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6116 http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6116 [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome
greenshackle2 10y ago
> start either decomposing or being absorbed by the body Not a doctor, but, I imagine scarring occurs if there is damage. If half your brain has been replaced by scar tissue, it might not be 'dead' in the sense that all of its cells are dead, but no amount of shocking will make it work.

mordocai 10y ago

I am a layperson as well but as I understand it the brain cells have not died in a brain dead patient, rather there is no sign of communication as you said. As far as any thoughts of restarting communication, I have no idea.

comboy 10y ago
Article suggests that the cells get destroyed: > If their efforts are stalled by a lack of oxygen, neurons are rapidly inundated with ions which build to toxic levels, causing irreversible damage. I mean, we may get into a discussion when does the brain cell die, like what if it still is a living cell, but can't act as a neuron anymore.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  "Damage" != "dead" (at the cellular level). But it can be sufficient to keep the brain from functioning other than at an exceptionally basic level. E.g., no voluntary movement, speech, understanding, consciousness.

jawilson2 10y ago

Brain death usually only occurs after severe injury, either from trauma or from asphyxiation. Large portions of the brain ARE dead tissue; search for Terri Schiavo's MRI (or CT). Most of the skull is filled with fluid. On the other hand, rarely comatose or persistent vegetative patients do wake up, or, more frighteningly, were awake and aware for years. I did some of my PhD research with a person who had a brain-stem stroke in 1980, who lived in a care center, and they didn't realize he was still awake and trying to communicate until 1992.

diggernet 10y ago
Interesting. So it sounds like after some period of time, an MRI or CT should be able to show that a 'beating-heart cadaver' is truly brain dead. My understanding of comatose/vegetative patients is that it is a different case, where an EEG would actually show some activity. Is that correct? As for the patient you mention... Wow! Fascinating! What is the definition of 'awake' in his case, how did they not know, and how did they discover??
- notanote 10y ago
  A mostly fluid filled skull is not an indication of brain death, in fact there are cases of people with most of their brains spread in a thin layer against their skull. [1] The name for aware but apparently comatose cases is locked-in syndrome. [2] A nightmare scenario for sure. [1] http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6116 http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6116 [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locked-in_syndrome

greenshackle2 10y ago

> start either decomposing or being absorbed by the body Not a doctor, but, I imagine scarring occurs if there is damage. If half your brain has been replaced by scar tissue, it might not be 'dead' in the sense that all of its cells are dead, but no amount of shocking will make it work.