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Screw chilling effects, I'm going to ask this anyway because being afraid of having these discussions is detrimental to making real progress as a society. Maki

by Bjartr 10y ago

Screw chilling effects, I'm going to ask this anyway because being afraid of having these discussions is detrimental to making real progress as a society. Making the assumption* that some decent fraction of those who consume such media would be sated if they could get it and not move on to actually hurting children. Then couldn't a preventative measure be to take all the existing child porn and make it available to them? Though I guess that risks normalizing the condition and could lead to it being more commonplace (certainly it would appear so as those who successfully suppress it would hide it less) and if it's more commonplace than the fraction that does still act harmfully upon the impulse could, in absolute numbers, exceed those that do today. Figuring out how things fall would first require a good understanding of the numbers. *I don't know if this is true or false and would be interested to know if there is existing general consensus on the evolution of seeking out fantasy fulfillment over time in general and how it's affected by free access v. restricted access to related material.

Latty 10y ago
Arguably we are at a point where good (here meaning effective) CG or Art should be able to replace such a thing without any real child being abused or having their privacy invaded, which would be preferable. Of course, in some countries, that too is illegal, for some reason.
- CurtMonash 10y ago
  This is very much in line with my thinking. Making of child porn with real children is one of the most horrific crimes in the world. Fighting that by criminalizing other steps in the creation/consumption chain makes sense. On the other hard, child porn in which no real children were involved is a free speech issue, and I'm on the side that favors permitting it. There's also a third group of issues -- child porn is used as an excuse for general internet surveillance, which then is used to also benefit anti-terrorism, law enforcement, and anti-piracy. That's why copyright lobbyists refer to (concern about) child porn as being a godsend for their industry.
jcbrand 10y ago
> Then couldn't a preventative measure be to take all the existing child porn and make it available to them? What about the victims' right not to have their privacy and dignity violated by the continuing consumption of the material?
- Lawtonfogle 10y ago
  Yes, what about that. The only way the FBI is justified is if we ignore that. And if we are choosing to ignore it to justify the FBI's actions then why not do it here for the greater good? Personally I'm with you that we shouldn't ignore it in either case.
  - flowersoldier 10y ago
    I read a post where someone actually set up a honey pot without actually hosting CP. There was an application system where the pedos thought they were going to get cp via an application process or were a big enough part of the "community." I feel like the FBI could have implemented something similar without actually hosting the images. I feel like there is no excuse for distributing cp, even if it is to catch pedos. You shouldn't become a pedo to catch pedos.
    - Lawtonfogle 10y ago
      Yeah, such a better system. Even set up a bit coin address where they have to pay about $25 to get in to prove intent (along with visiting the site and then logging in).
- Bjartr 10y ago
  I was responding to a comment that made the case that prevention of future physical child harm is more important than prevention of revictimization, so I'm just continuing along that line of reasoning. You'll have to ask him if you want an answer for why he felt that trade-off was valid.
ScottBurson 10y ago
There seems to be some evidence to support your assumption. I saw something somewhere that claimed that the frequency of rape has actually fallen over the last 15 years and noted that that correlated with the expanding availability of Internet porn. That's weak evidence, but at least it doesn't contradict the hypothesis. Someone should try giving some pedophiles access to a generous supply of computer-generated CP and seeing what happens.
openasocket 10y ago
Regarding your assumption: I have a family member who's a child psychologist specializing in abuse cases, and according to her the vast majority of those who consume CP have abused children. Hard numbers are hard to come by because of the illicit nature of pedophilia, but studies involving anonymous surveys (in which the individual's name is withheld and their answers can't be used against them by law enforcement) supports that.
- InDubioProDubio 10y ago
  According to her? Her!? And what would a woman have to lose, if there was a whole caste of psychologically outcasts to disappear? No social justice warriors and priests to be pressured into services with loaded husbands? Your expert is not neutral, this whole machinery that spawned her, heavily depends on all gears turning as they turn now. Which doesn't make the machinery bad, quite contrary. I support the upholding of pressure on pedophiles - it guarantees a sort of basic contract security, even if society would be near-collapses. In a era of total surveillance, their crime-rate is bound to drop to zero- but the continued exploit of thought-criminals is a necessary stabilizer. Viv la Leviathancybernetics!
- wyager 10y ago
  That sounds extremely vulnerable to selection bias. If she specializes in child abuse cases, obviously she's going to see more child abusers. People who own CP but don't abuse children would be unlikely to interact with her.
  - openasocket 10y ago
    She didn't perform the study, she just told me what the literature says.
    - Pica_soO 10y ago
      Now that those "literature" correlates with my feelings, suddenly i can appreciate its self-evident scientific value. I wish there was a way to take back all those comments on psychology/sociology papers i posted on hacker news.
greendragon 10y ago
I like to tell this to people when they start gushing about Japan because of their cleanliness or law and order or whatever, but they didn't make private possession illegal until a couple years ago. Before then it was just production or possession with commercial intent that was illegal. And the new law still doesn't apply to manga/anime. Is Japan a hell-hole? Are Japan's children all psychologically ruined or at a much higher threat of abuse because of the prevalence of anime/manga porn? (Some quick googling on opened investigations suggests a mere 0.0075% of Japan's children are affected per year.) To me Japan seems fine. (Another odd behavior is that daughters bathe with their fathers, sometimes (like 6-10%) all the way up to high school age.)
- ScottBurson 10y ago
  > daughters bathe with their fathers Isn't it that the whole family bathes together? The way you put it makes it sound like it's just the two of them, which doesn't fit the impression I have, though I don't really know.
bertiewhykovich 10y ago
The notion that pornographic content does not produce desire for the acts depicted is on its face ludicrous and should be clearly false to anyone who has ever consumed pornography.
- pYQAJ6Zm 10y ago
  Not quite. Perhaps a consumer of pornography consumes only what they already like. Personally, watching, say, bondage out of curiosity didn’t make me like the stuff.

by Bjartr 10y ago

Latty 10y ago

Arguably we are at a point where good (here meaning effective) CG or Art should be able to replace such a thing without any real child being abused or having their privacy invaded, which would be preferable. Of course, in some countries, that too is illegal, for some reason.

CurtMonash 10y ago
This is very much in line with my thinking. Making of child porn with real children is one of the most horrific crimes in the world. Fighting that by criminalizing other steps in the creation/consumption chain makes sense. On the other hard, child porn in which no real children were involved is a free speech issue, and I'm on the side that favors permitting it. There's also a third group of issues -- child porn is used as an excuse for general internet surveillance, which then is used to also benefit anti-terrorism, law enforcement, and anti-piracy. That's why copyright lobbyists refer to (concern about) child porn as being a godsend for their industry.

jcbrand 10y ago

> Then couldn't a preventative measure be to take all the existing child porn and make it available to them? What about the victims' right not to have their privacy and dignity violated by the continuing consumption of the material?

Lawtonfogle 10y ago
Yes, what about that. The only way the FBI is justified is if we ignore that. And if we are choosing to ignore it to justify the FBI's actions then why not do it here for the greater good? Personally I'm with you that we shouldn't ignore it in either case.
- flowersoldier 10y ago
  I read a post where someone actually set up a honey pot without actually hosting CP. There was an application system where the pedos thought they were going to get cp via an application process or were a big enough part of the "community." I feel like the FBI could have implemented something similar without actually hosting the images. I feel like there is no excuse for distributing cp, even if it is to catch pedos. You shouldn't become a pedo to catch pedos.
  - Lawtonfogle 10y ago
    Yeah, such a better system. Even set up a bit coin address where they have to pay about $25 to get in to prove intent (along with visiting the site and then logging in).
Bjartr 10y ago
I was responding to a comment that made the case that prevention of future physical child harm is more important than prevention of revictimization, so I'm just continuing along that line of reasoning. You'll have to ask him if you want an answer for why he felt that trade-off was valid.

ScottBurson 10y ago

There seems to be some evidence to support your assumption. I saw something somewhere that claimed that the frequency of rape has actually fallen over the last 15 years and noted that that correlated with the expanding availability of Internet porn. That's weak evidence, but at least it doesn't contradict the hypothesis. Someone should try giving some pedophiles access to a generous supply of computer-generated CP and seeing what happens.

openasocket 10y ago

Regarding your assumption: I have a family member who's a child psychologist specializing in abuse cases, and according to her the vast majority of those who consume CP have abused children. Hard numbers are hard to come by because of the illicit nature of pedophilia, but studies involving anonymous surveys (in which the individual's name is withheld and their answers can't be used against them by law enforcement) supports that.

InDubioProDubio 10y ago
According to her? Her!? And what would a woman have to lose, if there was a whole caste of psychologically outcasts to disappear? No social justice warriors and priests to be pressured into services with loaded husbands? Your expert is not neutral, this whole machinery that spawned her, heavily depends on all gears turning as they turn now. Which doesn't make the machinery bad, quite contrary. I support the upholding of pressure on pedophiles - it guarantees a sort of basic contract security, even if society would be near-collapses. In a era of total surveillance, their crime-rate is bound to drop to zero- but the continued exploit of thought-criminals is a necessary stabilizer. Viv la Leviathancybernetics!
wyager 10y ago
That sounds extremely vulnerable to selection bias. If she specializes in child abuse cases, obviously she's going to see more child abusers. People who own CP but don't abuse children would be unlikely to interact with her.
- openasocket 10y ago
  She didn't perform the study, she just told me what the literature says.
  - Pica_soO 10y ago
    Now that those "literature" correlates with my feelings, suddenly i can appreciate its self-evident scientific value. I wish there was a way to take back all those comments on psychology/sociology papers i posted on hacker news.

greendragon 10y ago

I like to tell this to people when they start gushing about Japan because of their cleanliness or law and order or whatever, but they didn't make private possession illegal until a couple years ago. Before then it was just production or possession with commercial intent that was illegal. And the new law still doesn't apply to manga/anime. Is Japan a hell-hole? Are Japan's children all psychologically ruined or at a much higher threat of abuse because of the prevalence of anime/manga porn? (Some quick googling on opened investigations suggests a mere 0.0075% of Japan's children are affected per year.) To me Japan seems fine. (Another odd behavior is that daughters bathe with their fathers, sometimes (like 6-10%) all the way up to high school age.)

ScottBurson 10y ago
> daughters bathe with their fathers Isn't it that the whole family bathes together? The way you put it makes it sound like it's just the two of them, which doesn't fit the impression I have, though I don't really know.

bertiewhykovich 10y ago

The notion that pornographic content does not produce desire for the acts depicted is on its face ludicrous and should be clearly false to anyone who has ever consumed pornography.

pYQAJ6Zm 10y ago
Not quite. Perhaps a consumer of pornography consumes only what they already like. Personally, watching, say, bondage out of curiosity didn’t make me like the stuff.