6 ms·

I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter, but it is a significant leap to take his believe that a judge with Mexican heritage would be biased against him d

I'm the furthest thing from a Trump supporter, but it is a significant leap to take his believe that a judge with Mexican heritage would be biased against him due to his anti-Mexican agenda, and turn that into an opposition of all people of Mexican descent. Trump has said some despicable things, but saying that a person of Mexican descent might be biased against him because he's basically a dick to Mexico seems reasonably logical. Now, claiming that that's grounds for the judge to recuse himself is quite a stretch, but I don't personally see it as racist. I also think that stretching to label questionable things as racist is counter-productive; it dilutes the meaning, and makes it more difficult to call out the extreme, blatant racism that's going elsewhere.

snowwrestler 10y ago
American pluralism, which the GP post was talking about, is the belief that people of many backgrounds can come together as equals and build a society together. Trump's focus on the Mexican heritage of an American judge (who was born in Chicago, Illinois, USA BTW) is a textbook attack on that idea.
- tempestn 10y ago
  I was responding specifically to this line: "Trump confirmed his own opposition to people of Mexican descent when he said judge Gonzalo Curiel had a conflict of interest." I don't believe that particular incident is strong evidence that Trump opposes people of Mexican descent in general. I can understand his belief that a person of Mexican descent would not like him. I don't like him myself, nor do I agree with any of his stated positions on immigration or immigrants. I expect that if my parents were from Mexico, I might feel even more strongly that way, which is essentially what he suggested. (Again, I don't agree that it constitutes a conflict of interest! Just that the idea that a person descended from Mexican immigrants would likely not be a fan of his is not unreasonable.)
  - carapace 10y ago
    What snowwrestler says: Trump says an American Judge, whose job it is to be impartial and judge things, can't do his job because he's Mexican-American. That's messed up. Sure, we can understand if the Judge has some personal feelings, but we also understand that he's going to set them aside and be impartial in his judgement because he's been made a JUDGE! We presume that the folks who gave him that authority did so because they thought and felt that he would be good at it. (And not "despite being a Mexican"!!) Trump's B.S. undermines the whole concept of impartial Justice. It drives a wedge into the fundamental values of our government. And it's pretty racist against Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. It was a hell of a thing to say when he was just the joke candidate, and it's all the more dismaying now that he's the Joke President.
    - Nadya 10y ago
      >What snowwrestler says: Trump says an American Judge, whose job it is to be impartial and judge things, can't do his job because he's Mexican-American. That's messed up. Reality is a bit more nuanced than that. A Mexican-American judge who is affiliated with `La Raza` [0] and is sympathetic to illegal immigrants (from Mexico) ruling on a case against an individual who is not sympathetic to illegal immigrants. The keyword I'm emphasizing because people conveniently leave it out is: illegal. It makes a drastic difference when speaking about immigration. Illegal immigration is not the same. >The HNBA sometimes condemns rhetoric that it perceives as "divisive and racist" and aimed at immigrants. For example, in response to Donald Trump's comments regarding illegal immigration from Mexico to the United States, and Trump's derogatory remarks about some of those immigrants, the group's president issued a press release in July 2015 calling for a boycott of all Donald Trump-owned businesses. [0] The Bar Association, not any racist-extremist group like some ignorant people have believed, no thanks in part to Breitbart's shoddy reporting on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_National_Bar_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_National_Bar_Associat...
      - carapace 10y ago
        Reality is always more nuanced. It's fractal, after all. The point is that Trump's statements are a strong indicator of racist beliefs (latent or otherwise). Consider the statement, "A member of the Hispanic National Bar Association who is a Judge can and will be impartial in the case in question."
- Crito 10y ago
  > "the belief that people of many backgrounds can come together as equals and build a society together." not > "the belief that people of many backgrounds ALWAYS come together as equals and build a society together."
  - snowwrestler 10y ago
    Trump's argument was that a fully qualified, experienced, American citizen judge can't participate in civil society--can't do his civil service job properly--simply because his parents were Mexican. It's un-American and wrong. I'm going to speak out about things like this, and everyone reading this comment should do so as well. Each of us, every American citizen, is personally responsible for delivering a society that fulfills our ideals. No one else is going to do it for us.
    - tempestn 10y ago
      I agree with this statement as well. I would suggest though, that it's being strawman'ed. Let's "steelman" the argument just as we try to do here on HN. For example, this statement is a strawman: "Trump said that a judge is inherently biased just because his parents are Mexican." The steelman would be something like, "Trump claimed that a judge had a conflict of interest against him. The judge was born in America, but has Mexican parents, which Trump believes could cause him to have a bias due to Trump's anti-Mexican policy proposals, such as the border wall." Should he be calling the judge's ability to do his job into question? I don't think so, no. But let's argue against what he actually said - in fact, go even further than that and interpret it in the most reasonable way possible - because it's more likely to result in useful discussion among people of differing opinions.

snowwrestler 10y ago

American pluralism, which the GP post was talking about, is the belief that people of many backgrounds can come together as equals and build a society together. Trump's focus on the Mexican heritage of an American judge (who was born in Chicago, Illinois, USA BTW) is a textbook attack on that idea.

tempestn 10y ago
I was responding specifically to this line: "Trump confirmed his own opposition to people of Mexican descent when he said judge Gonzalo Curiel had a conflict of interest." I don't believe that particular incident is strong evidence that Trump opposes people of Mexican descent in general. I can understand his belief that a person of Mexican descent would not like him. I don't like him myself, nor do I agree with any of his stated positions on immigration or immigrants. I expect that if my parents were from Mexico, I might feel even more strongly that way, which is essentially what he suggested. (Again, I don't agree that it constitutes a conflict of interest! Just that the idea that a person descended from Mexican immigrants would likely not be a fan of his is not unreasonable.)
- carapace 10y ago
  What snowwrestler says: Trump says an American Judge, whose job it is to be impartial and judge things, can't do his job because he's Mexican-American. That's messed up. Sure, we can understand if the Judge has some personal feelings, but we also understand that he's going to set them aside and be impartial in his judgement because he's been made a JUDGE! We presume that the folks who gave him that authority did so because they thought and felt that he would be good at it. (And not "despite being a Mexican"!!) Trump's B.S. undermines the whole concept of impartial Justice. It drives a wedge into the fundamental values of our government. And it's pretty racist against Mexicans and Mexican-Americans. It was a hell of a thing to say when he was just the joke candidate, and it's all the more dismaying now that he's the Joke President.
  - Nadya 10y ago
    >What snowwrestler says: Trump says an American Judge, whose job it is to be impartial and judge things, can't do his job because he's Mexican-American. That's messed up. Reality is a bit more nuanced than that. A Mexican-American judge who is affiliated with `La Raza` [0] and is sympathetic to illegal immigrants (from Mexico) ruling on a case against an individual who is not sympathetic to illegal immigrants. The keyword I'm emphasizing because people conveniently leave it out is: illegal. It makes a drastic difference when speaking about immigration. Illegal immigration is not the same. >The HNBA sometimes condemns rhetoric that it perceives as "divisive and racist" and aimed at immigrants. For example, in response to Donald Trump's comments regarding illegal immigration from Mexico to the United States, and Trump's derogatory remarks about some of those immigrants, the group's president issued a press release in July 2015 calling for a boycott of all Donald Trump-owned businesses. [0] The Bar Association, not any racist-extremist group like some ignorant people have believed, no thanks in part to Breitbart's shoddy reporting on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_National_Bar_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_National_Bar_Associat...
    - carapace 10y ago
      Reality is always more nuanced. It's fractal, after all. The point is that Trump's statements are a strong indicator of racist beliefs (latent or otherwise). Consider the statement, "A member of the Hispanic National Bar Association who is a Judge can and will be impartial in the case in question."
Crito 10y ago
> "the belief that people of many backgrounds can come together as equals and build a society together." not > "the belief that people of many backgrounds ALWAYS come together as equals and build a society together."
- snowwrestler 10y ago
  Trump's argument was that a fully qualified, experienced, American citizen judge can't participate in civil society--can't do his civil service job properly--simply because his parents were Mexican. It's un-American and wrong. I'm going to speak out about things like this, and everyone reading this comment should do so as well. Each of us, every American citizen, is personally responsible for delivering a society that fulfills our ideals. No one else is going to do it for us.
  - tempestn 10y ago
    I agree with this statement as well. I would suggest though, that it's being strawman'ed. Let's "steelman" the argument just as we try to do here on HN. For example, this statement is a strawman: "Trump said that a judge is inherently biased just because his parents are Mexican." The steelman would be something like, "Trump claimed that a judge had a conflict of interest against him. The judge was born in America, but has Mexican parents, which Trump believes could cause him to have a bias due to Trump's anti-Mexican policy proposals, such as the border wall." Should he be calling the judge's ability to do his job into question? I don't think so, no. But let's argue against what he actually said - in fact, go even further than that and interpret it in the most reasonable way possible - because it's more likely to result in useful discussion among people of differing opinions.