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I agree about this measure - it's a good way to raise income for infrastructure from those who can most afford it and discourage leaving property unused. But w

I agree about this measure - it's a good way to raise income for infrastructure from those who can most afford it and discourage leaving property unused. But when did the global elite become our new scapegoat? Must we always blame difficulties on an ill-defined enemy who shifts conveniently with the speaker until everyone or no-one is to blame? To me this global elite sounds just like all those other labels you claim this shadowy cabal are trying to fool us with (no doubt they plot to raise house prices once a year at Davos or Bilderberg or wherever). It's a cheap trick we invent to fool ourselves into thinking someone other than us is to blame for our messy predicament.

nitrogen 10y ago
Blaming oneself for the actions of others is no solution, either.
- grey-area 10y ago
  To be clear, I'm not blaming myself, or you, I'm saying it is a collective problem with collective solutions (like this law, like reforming zoning or planning rules, building more housing etc). Find solutions, not a scapegoat.
krschultz 10y ago
I'd say a more specific definition in this case is "people that are using real estate as a place to park money rather than as housing". In many cities like Vancouver, New York, and Miami, the money often is coming from foreign countries. With housing so limited, that has a real impact on people that live in these cities, and the benefit is provided to people that don't even live here.
- zaroth 10y ago
  If people want to park money in funds tied to housing (that have returns tracking real estate) then there are funds like IYR that can do that much cheaper than actually owning a house and paying property taxes! If someone is buying real estate and leaving the property empty just to park funds... It makes me wonder if these are funds that can't be straight up invested in an ETF and are actually being laundered in some way.
  - cfraenkel 10y ago
    um, yeah, that's the whole point. In addition to all the empty homes, there's so many teenagers driving around in Ferraris/Lambos it's become a joke. Sometimes Mom comes with the kid, other times it's just the kid living alone (typically with a nanny). It's mostly hot money from China. Though to be fair, there are plenty of Mom+Kid from places like Korea who are here for the education & into to the 'West'.
    - hhw 10y ago
      The worst part is they collect social benefits like education and healthcare without paying any income taxes into the system.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        Presumably they pay property taxes and sales taxes (if BC has that)? That should offset some of the lack of income taxes. I'm not sure you can consider them complete freeloaders. Also, can foreign children just move into Canada without any paperwork? I guess student visas?
        hhw 10y ago
        Yes, we pay 7% PST on sales tax, which doesn't apply to groceries or restaurants, where presumably a lot of their spending would go. That's a far cry from the income taxes that should be paid if they're claiming resident status: 5.06% on the first $38,210 of taxable income, + 7.7% on the next $38,211, + 10.5% on the next $11,320, + 12.29% on the next $18,802, + 14.7% on the amount over $106,543 Generally, the ones who come over here would fit in that top tax bracket. They immigrate into the country based on a loophole in the immigrant investor program into Quebec, but then end up living here in Vancouver. As soon as they get their citizenship, the husband goes back to China and the wife and children stay here and no income is declared. Property taxes are municipal, which does not contribute to healthcare and education. They may not be paying nothing into the system, but they certainly take more out of the system than they put in. What makes this the most egregious is that many of them claim additional low income benefits, like discounted pharma drugs and even collect welfare once they've received citizenship. There's also several pregnant mainland Chinese women coming into the country before they show, and having their babies here so that they get Canadian citizenship and all the benefits that entails. Yes, it's fairly easy to get a student visa in Canada. There are tons of ESL (English as a second language) schools around downtown, with tons of latin american, middle eastern, Japanese, Korean, and mainland Chinese young people. Some of those schools are designed so that they don't actually have to show up, but still show up as enrolled for student visa requirements.
- skewart 10y ago
  I always hear about these people, but I've had a hard time tracking down any data on who they are or how many properties they have bought. I'm sure there are some wealthy Chinese people who have bought property in major cities as a way to park money. I'm just a little skeptical that it's in any way a significant driver of higher housing prices. I would be willing to bet that there are far more Canadians looking to buy housing in Vancouver than there are foreigners looking to do so. The fundamental problem seems to be that there are more people who want to move to Vancouver than there are people who want to leave. It would be incredible if there were so many foreigners looking to buy places to park money that reducing their numbers would somehow change this fact.
  - aianus 10y ago
    I'm Canadian and I've never heard of anyone moving to Vancouver. It's rainy, depressing, very expensive, and unlike SF there aren't isn't any major industry paying fat salaries to make it worth it.
    - skewart 10y ago
      Interesting. I've known several Canadians who've moved there from elsewhere in BC, and from Quebec. Vancouver's population has grown steadily over the last few decades[0]. Though perhaps it hasn't had anything like the population boom that, say, Calgary has, or the same kind of economic draw that SF has. What are the places you've found your fellow Canadians tend to move to? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver
      - aianus 10y ago
        > What are the places you've found your fellow Canadians tend to move to? CS classmates: overwhelmingly San Francisco, with NYC and Seattle in second place. Business graduates: Toronto, Chicago, New York A few go to remote areas to work in mining etc. But yeah, never heard of anyone moving to Vancouver unless they were originally from there and were moving back.
    - 10y ago
sumedh 10y ago
> But when did the global elite become our new scapegoat? When people found out that they pay less tax and have offshore accounts.
- grey-area 10y ago
  So your definition of the global elite is that they avoid tax. Other people would say that they earn over a certain amount, or that they are sneering metropolitans, or that they don't have a home country, or that they own too many houses, or that they make their money from the wrong thing. Most of those definitions would fit Donald Trump or Nigel Farage for example, but of course they are not part of the global elite for many. That's the problem with this sort of term; it is inflated with so many contradictory meanings by so many people it becomes meaningless.
  - sumedh 10y ago
    If people complain that other people earn more than them then they are just jealous. I am talking about fairness. When Warren Buffett complains that billionaires are paying less tax compared to the average Joe then you cant blame the average Joe getting angry about it.
    - grey-area 10y ago
      So talk about specific actions to remedy specific problems, not about a nebulous global elite.
      - sumedh 10y ago
        I guess the voters made a specific action, voting Trump.
        grey-area 10y ago
        That certainly wasn't a vote against the global elite, since by any of the definitions above (in particular your 'pay less tax' one) he is a fully-fledged member of that elite. I'm sure he'll continue to talk about how he's taking on the global elite, or the main stream media, or muslims/terrorists or whatever other convenient group he can find to deflect blame. That's what's dangerous about terms like global elite - they lead you away from specific problems and into vicious blaming of some dehumanised other who becomes the scapegoat for all the world's ills.
CPAhem 10y ago
>But when did the global elite Many homes are being bought out by the Chinese elite. They are desperately trying to get their money out of China before the Yuan devalues or recession strikes. The same is happening in Hong Kong, Australia and New Zealand.
- ryanwaggoner 10y ago
  They are desperately trying to get their money out of China before the Yuan devalues or recession strikes. The horror! They're investing their money legally in the hopes of protecting or even (gasp!) growing their wealth. Yes, there are some downsides to that investment, but there are also upsides, and it's unclear to me why they have the primary responsibility for ensuring that every dollar they invest minimizes harm. I invest in index funds and I'm sure those dollars do some harm in the world (not net, I hope). Am I a monster? It's reasonable for governments to take actions like this to protect their citizens. It's their job, in fact. But it seems profoundly unreasonable to me to get angry at the chinese elites for investing their money legally in order to protect their wealth. Understandable, but unreasonable.
  - LBXrRkxx 10y ago
    Then it's UNREASONABLE for anyone poorer than you to get angry at you, isn't it? They're all irrational, but everyone with a higher net worth is more REASONABLE than you are, right? And you make exactly the average income in the US, so you're point of view is fair and balanced, isn't it?
    - ryanwaggoner 10y ago
      What? I have no idea how you made that jump. If you're angry at someone for making more than you (or more than the average income, what a useless metric), then yes, that's irrational. How could it not be? If you're angry at someone for being unfair to you, then their wealth level is irrelevant. If you're angry at them because they invested or spent their money in a way that way down the line has some tiny effect on your life that's negative [1], then that's too high a standard. There is literally no one on earth whose actions don't have some negative effect on someone, somewhere. 1. I mean that that individual's actions have a small effect on you, not that the aggregate effect isn't large and meaningful.

nitrogen 10y ago

Blaming oneself for the actions of others is no solution, either.

grey-area 10y ago
To be clear, I'm not blaming myself, or you, I'm saying it is a collective problem with collective solutions (like this law, like reforming zoning or planning rules, building more housing etc). Find solutions, not a scapegoat.

krschultz 10y ago

I'd say a more specific definition in this case is "people that are using real estate as a place to park money rather than as housing". In many cities like Vancouver, New York, and Miami, the money often is coming from foreign countries. With housing so limited, that has a real impact on people that live in these cities, and the benefit is provided to people that don't even live here.

zaroth 10y ago
If people want to park money in funds tied to housing (that have returns tracking real estate) then there are funds like IYR that can do that much cheaper than actually owning a house and paying property taxes! If someone is buying real estate and leaving the property empty just to park funds... It makes me wonder if these are funds that can't be straight up invested in an ETF and are actually being laundered in some way.
- cfraenkel 10y ago
  um, yeah, that's the whole point. In addition to all the empty homes, there's so many teenagers driving around in Ferraris/Lambos it's become a joke. Sometimes Mom comes with the kid, other times it's just the kid living alone (typically with a nanny). It's mostly hot money from China. Though to be fair, there are plenty of Mom+Kid from places like Korea who are here for the education & into to the 'West'.
  - hhw 10y ago
    The worst part is they collect social benefits like education and healthcare without paying any income taxes into the system.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Presumably they pay property taxes and sales taxes (if BC has that)? That should offset some of the lack of income taxes. I'm not sure you can consider them complete freeloaders. Also, can foreign children just move into Canada without any paperwork? I guess student visas?
      - hhw 10y ago
        Yes, we pay 7% PST on sales tax, which doesn't apply to groceries or restaurants, where presumably a lot of their spending would go. That's a far cry from the income taxes that should be paid if they're claiming resident status: 5.06% on the first $38,210 of taxable income, + 7.7% on the next $38,211, + 10.5% on the next $11,320, + 12.29% on the next $18,802, + 14.7% on the amount over $106,543 Generally, the ones who come over here would fit in that top tax bracket. They immigrate into the country based on a loophole in the immigrant investor program into Quebec, but then end up living here in Vancouver. As soon as they get their citizenship, the husband goes back to China and the wife and children stay here and no income is declared. Property taxes are municipal, which does not contribute to healthcare and education. They may not be paying nothing into the system, but they certainly take more out of the system than they put in. What makes this the most egregious is that many of them claim additional low income benefits, like discounted pharma drugs and even collect welfare once they've received citizenship. There's also several pregnant mainland Chinese women coming into the country before they show, and having their babies here so that they get Canadian citizenship and all the benefits that entails. Yes, it's fairly easy to get a student visa in Canada. There are tons of ESL (English as a second language) schools around downtown, with tons of latin american, middle eastern, Japanese, Korean, and mainland Chinese young people. Some of those schools are designed so that they don't actually have to show up, but still show up as enrolled for student visa requirements.
skewart 10y ago
I always hear about these people, but I've had a hard time tracking down any data on who they are or how many properties they have bought. I'm sure there are some wealthy Chinese people who have bought property in major cities as a way to park money. I'm just a little skeptical that it's in any way a significant driver of higher housing prices. I would be willing to bet that there are far more Canadians looking to buy housing in Vancouver than there are foreigners looking to do so. The fundamental problem seems to be that there are more people who want to move to Vancouver than there are people who want to leave. It would be incredible if there were so many foreigners looking to buy places to park money that reducing their numbers would somehow change this fact.
- aianus 10y ago
  I'm Canadian and I've never heard of anyone moving to Vancouver. It's rainy, depressing, very expensive, and unlike SF there aren't isn't any major industry paying fat salaries to make it worth it.
  - skewart 10y ago
    Interesting. I've known several Canadians who've moved there from elsewhere in BC, and from Quebec. Vancouver's population has grown steadily over the last few decades[0]. Though perhaps it hasn't had anything like the population boom that, say, Calgary has, or the same kind of economic draw that SF has. What are the places you've found your fellow Canadians tend to move to? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Vancouver
    - aianus 10y ago
      > What are the places you've found your fellow Canadians tend to move to? CS classmates: overwhelmingly San Francisco, with NYC and Seattle in second place. Business graduates: Toronto, Chicago, New York A few go to remote areas to work in mining etc. But yeah, never heard of anyone moving to Vancouver unless they were originally from there and were moving back.
  - 10y ago

sumedh 10y ago

> But when did the global elite become our new scapegoat? When people found out that they pay less tax and have offshore accounts.

grey-area 10y ago
So your definition of the global elite is that they avoid tax. Other people would say that they earn over a certain amount, or that they are sneering metropolitans, or that they don't have a home country, or that they own too many houses, or that they make their money from the wrong thing. Most of those definitions would fit Donald Trump or Nigel Farage for example, but of course they are not part of the global elite for many. That's the problem with this sort of term; it is inflated with so many contradictory meanings by so many people it becomes meaningless.
- sumedh 10y ago
  If people complain that other people earn more than them then they are just jealous. I am talking about fairness. When Warren Buffett complains that billionaires are paying less tax compared to the average Joe then you cant blame the average Joe getting angry about it.
  - grey-area 10y ago
    So talk about specific actions to remedy specific problems, not about a nebulous global elite.
    - sumedh 10y ago
      I guess the voters made a specific action, voting Trump.
      - grey-area 10y ago
        That certainly wasn't a vote against the global elite, since by any of the definitions above (in particular your 'pay less tax' one) he is a fully-fledged member of that elite. I'm sure he'll continue to talk about how he's taking on the global elite, or the main stream media, or muslims/terrorists or whatever other convenient group he can find to deflect blame. That's what's dangerous about terms like global elite - they lead you away from specific problems and into vicious blaming of some dehumanised other who becomes the scapegoat for all the world's ills.

CPAhem 10y ago

>But when did the global elite Many homes are being bought out by the Chinese elite. They are desperately trying to get their money out of China before the Yuan devalues or recession strikes. The same is happening in Hong Kong, Australia and New Zealand.

ryanwaggoner 10y ago
They are desperately trying to get their money out of China before the Yuan devalues or recession strikes. The horror! They're investing their money legally in the hopes of protecting or even (gasp!) growing their wealth. Yes, there are some downsides to that investment, but there are also upsides, and it's unclear to me why they have the primary responsibility for ensuring that every dollar they invest minimizes harm. I invest in index funds and I'm sure those dollars do some harm in the world (not net, I hope). Am I a monster? It's reasonable for governments to take actions like this to protect their citizens. It's their job, in fact. But it seems profoundly unreasonable to me to get angry at the chinese elites for investing their money legally in order to protect their wealth. Understandable, but unreasonable.
- LBXrRkxx 10y ago
  Then it's UNREASONABLE for anyone poorer than you to get angry at you, isn't it? They're all irrational, but everyone with a higher net worth is more REASONABLE than you are, right? And you make exactly the average income in the US, so you're point of view is fair and balanced, isn't it?
  - ryanwaggoner 10y ago
    What? I have no idea how you made that jump. If you're angry at someone for making more than you (or more than the average income, what a useless metric), then yes, that's irrational. How could it not be? If you're angry at someone for being unfair to you, then their wealth level is irrelevant. If you're angry at them because they invested or spent their money in a way that way down the line has some tiny effect on your life that's negative [1], then that's too high a standard. There is literally no one on earth whose actions don't have some negative effect on someone, somewhere. 1. I mean that that individual's actions have a small effect on you, not that the aggregate effect isn't large and meaningful.