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It's comments like this that really make me sad about the state of labor solidarity among tech professionals. Like, please, stop torpedoing our negotiation posi

It's comments like this that really make me sad about the state of labor solidarity among tech professionals. Like, please, stop torpedoing our negotiation position, especially on a public forum that many technical employers and managers read. On the object level, I have a suspicion that being productive past 40 hr/wk or so has reverse causation for me. It's bad for me to work over 40 hours a week, so that magically translates into being bad at it. Social negotiation is one of those things that your non-verbal and emotional parts is really good at, and Thomas Schelling style "don't have the ability to do things you don't want others to pressure you into doing" strategies work.

johansch 10y ago
Do you realize that you're basically saying: "shut up with your facts, we've got a way of [easy hipster] living to protect"?
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  No, he is saying, you need to pace yourself. Don't burn out in your twenties. Most of you won't make your life better by working 80 hrs/week but you make life worse for a lot of people.
  - johansch 10y ago
    That's indeed something to think of.. but that's not what the poster wrote.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  You sound like you're either management or the kind of person who's first to cross picket lines. Anyhow, take out the vitriol and your statement is basically "do you realize that you're supporting the quality of life of software developers?" Yes. Yes I am. I'm a software developer and this stuff is important. I'm opposed to moving towards a negotiated position that gives employers more at the expense of software developers. These are not unreasonable positions to hold. editing to add in a quote from parent downthread: >yes, I was in some mid-management level Keep that in mind as you read comments.
  - ryanwaggoner 10y ago
    Responding with an ad hominem attack, nice. You see your position as supporting software developers, which is reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. It demonstrates that you care more about winning than about the truth. As a result, you're responding to someone who is behaving more rationally than you with an emotional response and personal attacks.
    - johansch 10y ago
      Thanks, that was a lot more eloquent and expressive than what I would have managed. But, yeah, I meant the same thing.
    - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
      This is the sort of bare-bones level of thinking about the consequences of your actions that I expect out of professionals and adults. The lady in the grocery store may be fat, but loudly talking about that true fact is the sort of thing that we teach our children not to do. I'm not expecting us to not discuss these things; I'm expecting us to not discuss them in a way that hurts us as a class. Keep it over the water cooler, or on private mailing lists. As far as the ad hominem goes - that's the appropriate response to the social status implications of the "easy hipster" comment.
      - johansch 10y ago
        Regarding the "easy hipster" part - I exaggerated for effect. That is the perception people have on SV developers, for right or wrong. Meanwhile, I'm from Sweden so I'm perhaps just an outside observer to this spectacle.. but at least from my perspective, SV developers are generally speaking overpaid. Well, at least compared to Swedish/European developers. :)
        ThrustVectoring 10y ago
        I suspect that your belief that SV developers are overpaid is because of targeted media with the goal of underpaying developers outside of Silicon Valley. If you're reading it, it's for you.
oldmanjay 10y ago
Save your call for solidarity for people who aren't in an industry where exceptional individual achievement matters this much. I'm not interested in being saddled like a horse to carry a bunch of can't-dos who should be encouraged to find something they aren't dragging down. Solidarity is for line workers who want to be lazy.
- ThrustVectoring 10y ago
  That's what I'm trying to do - keep the can't-dos from acquiescing to management demands in a way that makes effective people look lazy. It's the marginally-employed that are the least able to resist management demands for working more hours. If they work more hours than you do, then you're either working more hours for no gain, or you wind up looking like someone who isn't putting in as much effort as others. Management expectations are a resource we all share, and that includes you. Yes, solidarity helps the lazy. It also helps the hard-working.
Tsagadai 10y ago
We work in a field where many decide to take advantage of their employees who are usually young, single and love working on their code. This is a ripe combination of exploiting naivety for commercial gain (if you think you make a lot coding, think about those higher up who are selling it). On the negotiating side, I know a truly brilliant consultant who is way off at the higher end of salaries who negotiated to work only 7 months of the year. He would work 6 days a week and usually 14 hours a day but then wouldn't even touch a computer for almost 6 months. If some people want to work crazy hours they should be able to but they should demand appropriate remuneration for it and not sell their time and brainpower cheaply. And people who can get more done in less time should not be expected to work longer just because others are less productive.

johansch 10y ago

Do you realize that you're basically saying: "shut up with your facts, we've got a way of [easy hipster] living to protect"?

maxxxxx 10y ago
No, he is saying, you need to pace yourself. Don't burn out in your twenties. Most of you won't make your life better by working 80 hrs/week but you make life worse for a lot of people.
- johansch 10y ago
  That's indeed something to think of.. but that's not what the poster wrote.
ThrustVectoring 10y ago
You sound like you're either management or the kind of person who's first to cross picket lines. Anyhow, take out the vitriol and your statement is basically "do you realize that you're supporting the quality of life of software developers?" Yes. Yes I am. I'm a software developer and this stuff is important. I'm opposed to moving towards a negotiated position that gives employers more at the expense of software developers. These are not unreasonable positions to hold. editing to add in a quote from parent downthread: >yes, I was in some mid-management level Keep that in mind as you read comments.
- ryanwaggoner 10y ago
  Responding with an ad hominem attack, nice. You see your position as supporting software developers, which is reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. It demonstrates that you care more about winning than about the truth. As a result, you're responding to someone who is behaving more rationally than you with an emotional response and personal attacks.
  - johansch 10y ago
    Thanks, that was a lot more eloquent and expressive than what I would have managed. But, yeah, I meant the same thing.
  - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
    This is the sort of bare-bones level of thinking about the consequences of your actions that I expect out of professionals and adults. The lady in the grocery store may be fat, but loudly talking about that true fact is the sort of thing that we teach our children not to do. I'm not expecting us to not discuss these things; I'm expecting us to not discuss them in a way that hurts us as a class. Keep it over the water cooler, or on private mailing lists. As far as the ad hominem goes - that's the appropriate response to the social status implications of the "easy hipster" comment.
    - johansch 10y ago
      Regarding the "easy hipster" part - I exaggerated for effect. That is the perception people have on SV developers, for right or wrong. Meanwhile, I'm from Sweden so I'm perhaps just an outside observer to this spectacle.. but at least from my perspective, SV developers are generally speaking overpaid. Well, at least compared to Swedish/European developers. :)
      - ThrustVectoring 10y ago
        I suspect that your belief that SV developers are overpaid is because of targeted media with the goal of underpaying developers outside of Silicon Valley. If you're reading it, it's for you.

oldmanjay 10y ago

Save your call for solidarity for people who aren't in an industry where exceptional individual achievement matters this much. I'm not interested in being saddled like a horse to carry a bunch of can't-dos who should be encouraged to find something they aren't dragging down. Solidarity is for line workers who want to be lazy.

ThrustVectoring 10y ago
That's what I'm trying to do - keep the can't-dos from acquiescing to management demands in a way that makes effective people look lazy. It's the marginally-employed that are the least able to resist management demands for working more hours. If they work more hours than you do, then you're either working more hours for no gain, or you wind up looking like someone who isn't putting in as much effort as others. Management expectations are a resource we all share, and that includes you. Yes, solidarity helps the lazy. It also helps the hard-working.

Tsagadai 10y ago

We work in a field where many decide to take advantage of their employees who are usually young, single and love working on their code. This is a ripe combination of exploiting naivety for commercial gain (if you think you make a lot coding, think about those higher up who are selling it). On the negotiating side, I know a truly brilliant consultant who is way off at the higher end of salaries who negotiated to work only 7 months of the year. He would work 6 days a week and usually 14 hours a day but then wouldn't even touch a computer for almost 6 months. If some people want to work crazy hours they should be able to but they should demand appropriate remuneration for it and not sell their time and brainpower cheaply. And people who can get more done in less time should not be expected to work longer just because others are less productive.