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Okay well, let's try an experiment - tell me one thing you find morally or ethically reprehensible, and I'll try to provide you with one devil's advocate reason

by Sacho 10y ago

Okay well, let's try an experiment - tell me one thing you find morally or ethically reprehensible, and I'll try to provide you with one devil's advocate reason why the other side might consider it differently. Then we can do it the other way around. The dialogue between the two "opposing sides" has so completely broken down that "othering" is in full effect - there is no concept of what the "other side" wants, just third-party digestion of what someone thinks it wants. I'm not a Trump or Clinton supporter, although I'm biased for Trump and against Clinton, so I'll gladly take the first step. I've listened to some of Trump's speeches, and some of Clinton's speeches. I've also had a little bit of exposure to Obama's speeches, which I really liked. From my experience, Clinton's campaign has always had an undercurrent of contempt for opposing voters. I've looked around and seen other people have this belief - https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_a_candidate_insult_voters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_... Clinton even went so far as to label half of Trump's supporters as "deplorables....racist,sexist,homophobic..". Here's a discussion of that comment I've read - https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-Donald-Trump%E2%80%99s-supporters-%E2%80%9Ca-basket-of-deplorables%E2%80%9D https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-D... Madeleine Albright, when talking at a Clinton rally, said "there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-albright-campaigns-for-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-al... Gloria Steinem suggested that female Bernie voters are doing it "for the boys" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sanders-gloria-steinem-women-voters-men-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sande... You may have heard about "Bernie Bros" from the time Bernie was still a threat to her candidacy. It's not just attachments to her campaign, the media has been relentlessly supporting Clinton in labeling Trump supporters(or even anyone opposing Clinton) as racist and sexist. It doesn't stop with the media, it's her supporters as well, here's an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow One of the possible explanations of Trump's surprising victory is the social stigma of voting for him - http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-pre-election-polls-and-forecast-models-so-wrong-about-donald-trump http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-p... This worries me greatly, as a very zealous proponent of free speech - I wouldn't want a significant contingent of voters, enough to sway a whole election, to feel like they cannot voice their opinions publicly, even if I disagree with them. Considering all that, why do you think Clinton's campaign holds a moral high ground over Trump's? Why should I not be worried about this undercurrent of contempt for anyone politically opposed to her?

epmaybe 10y ago
Finally back! So to answer the question regarding moral high ground: Do I think Clinton also ran an immoral or unethical campaign? Absolutely. You've noted how her supporters have also engaged in those actions by socially stigmatizing free speech. I'd argue that social stigmatization of speech is allowed, as is the speech itself. Free speech goes both ways, does it not? But you're right, I would personally still want to listen to people I disagree with, just as we are discussing differences in opinion right now. And at the end of the day, I don't support Clinton. Precisely because I just didn't feel like I could rationalize that stigmatization for other people's points of view just to reaffirm my own. Here's the thing though: Did Clinton actively support violence? Racism? I'd argue that she did indeed support sexism, so I can't argue for or against that. I think that Trump reinforces supporter beliefs that racism is okay, that violence towards others that do not agree with him is okay. He has friends like Steve Bannon, that had a domestic violence dispute, that ran a hate-filled website. I can't deny that Bannon's probably a very smart individual, but morally I'm not sure I can support that. And we're seeing the repercussions of Trump's rhetoric, at least here in the Midwest and South. I'm from a southern state, and live near a public university. As a person of color, I've had people in trucks with confederate flags tell me whilst driving past that Trump will deport me, even though I was born here. Students are being killed for their religious beliefs (thankfully not in my town). All it's doing, as far as I can tell, is bringing fear, uncertainty, and doubt in many people's lives. I was young when 9/11 happened. And nobody told me what was going on, so I only knew the bits and pieces I would see on the news. What I gained out of it, I'm ashamed to say, was an irrational fear of men with turbans, and women with hijabs. I'd have nightmares of it. I'd be afraid when going to houses of family friends who were Sikh, some of the most peaceful people you'd know, solely because the men in the family wore turbans. Of course, now I know that those are irrational, and have since made my peace with it. Today, I find myself feeling the same irrational fears of my youth, but instead towards the white southern folk that I probably grew up with. I look at them and wonder, will that person stop me or make fun of me because of the way I look? I know that you probably don't agree with racism and sexism, just as I know that many of Trump's supporters probably also do not. But there are definitely people in that camp that Trump is not outright calling out. And I really wish he did. Finally, I did a google search to see if anyone had compiled any links to demonstrate what I've noticed in trump and his supporters. I found a bunch of links compiled in the subreddit /r/EnoughTrumpSpam, so I understand if they aren't exactly the best sources for how I feel about Trump. https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4uabwt/final_response_megathread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4uabwt/fin...

by Sacho 10y ago

epmaybe 10y ago

Finally back! So to answer the question regarding moral high ground: Do I think Clinton also ran an immoral or unethical campaign? Absolutely. You've noted how her supporters have also engaged in those actions by socially stigmatizing free speech. I'd argue that social stigmatization of speech is allowed, as is the speech itself. Free speech goes both ways, does it not? But you're right, I would personally still want to listen to people I disagree with, just as we are discussing differences in opinion right now. And at the end of the day, I don't support Clinton. Precisely because I just didn't feel like I could rationalize that stigmatization for other people's points of view just to reaffirm my own. Here's the thing though: Did Clinton actively support violence? Racism? I'd argue that she did indeed support sexism, so I can't argue for or against that. I think that Trump reinforces supporter beliefs that racism is okay, that violence towards others that do not agree with him is okay. He has friends like Steve Bannon, that had a domestic violence dispute, that ran a hate-filled website. I can't deny that Bannon's probably a very smart individual, but morally I'm not sure I can support that. And we're seeing the repercussions of Trump's rhetoric, at least here in the Midwest and South. I'm from a southern state, and live near a public university. As a person of color, I've had people in trucks with confederate flags tell me whilst driving past that Trump will deport me, even though I was born here. Students are being killed for their religious beliefs (thankfully not in my town). All it's doing, as far as I can tell, is bringing fear, uncertainty, and doubt in many people's lives. I was young when 9/11 happened. And nobody told me what was going on, so I only knew the bits and pieces I would see on the news. What I gained out of it, I'm ashamed to say, was an irrational fear of men with turbans, and women with hijabs. I'd have nightmares of it. I'd be afraid when going to houses of family friends who were Sikh, some of the most peaceful people you'd know, solely because the men in the family wore turbans. Of course, now I know that those are irrational, and have since made my peace with it. Today, I find myself feeling the same irrational fears of my youth, but instead towards the white southern folk that I probably grew up with. I look at them and wonder, will that person stop me or make fun of me because of the way I look? I know that you probably don't agree with racism and sexism, just as I know that many of Trump's supporters probably also do not. But there are definitely people in that camp that Trump is not outright calling out. And I really wish he did. Finally, I did a google search to see if anyone had compiled any links to demonstrate what I've noticed in trump and his supporters. I found a bunch of links compiled in the subreddit /r/EnoughTrumpSpam, so I understand if they aren't exactly the best sources for how I feel about Trump. https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4uabwt/final_response_megathread/ https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4uabwt/fin...