5 ms·

How North Koreans See Themselves and Why It Matters

83 points by jaybol 17y ago

drinian 17y ago
I saw the Mass Games in Pyongyang last year. This interview is spot-on that the North Korean ideology is tightly tied to race. Hitler would have loved to have the ability to put on such a show, and it was so beautifully done that by the end I was proud to be North Korean. Cultural pride can be weaponized.
- jerf 17y ago
  "Cultural pride can be weaponized": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power Not so much "can be" as "is".
- elblanco 17y ago
  Do tell more of this story!
  - drinian 17y ago
    I've mentioned bits and pieces in relevant stories here before, but haven't put a coherent account of my five days in the DPRK anywhere online. Paul Karl Lukacs' somewhat colorful account was what inspired me to go, and starts here: http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2007/05/dprk-q.html http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2007/05/dprk-q.html Tourism is opening up a bit this year; you can now take a beach vacation in the DPRK, via Koryo Tours!
xenthral 17y ago
Christopher Hitchen's review of the book and YC discussion on it: http://www.slate.com/id/2243112/pagenum/all/ http://www.slate.com/id/2243112/pagenum/all/ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1094011 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1094011
forinti 17y ago
There are 24 million North Koreans and they earn per capita about 6% of what the 38 million South Koreans earn. In 1990 there were about 16 million East Germans and 63 million West Germans who earned only about twice as much. Twenty years on, East Germany is still behind. Given the economic and ideological differences, I think the Koreans are more likely to drift apart than to ever become one country again.
- hga 17y ago
  One should also note the physical and mental effects of pervasive malnutrition. I agree; I don't know about the "drift apart", but reunification is the last thing a bunch of South Koreans want. The above problems will take generations to correct.
zppx 17y ago
Off-topic, I have the impression that the same applies to US policy on Iran, the majority of people appears to not understand the Iranian revolution, the Iranian regime that followed, the divergence about Iran in the Shi'a world and even what Iranians do think about their country.
- hga 17y ago
  Not really relevant, I'd say. To get a useful analogy, assume the Confederates had won the "War Between the States" and following that this sort of split and lack of understanding developed. Even then, it's hard to imagine the Confederacy e.g. taking such a harsh line toward contacts of any sorts with the Union. That sort of next door, you were once part of us thing is very far removed from events on the other side of the globe in country with a very different (and ancient!) culture, religion, etc. And one where visiting during a lot of these events could result in death or something quite unpleasant (they're still holding those hikers who (maybe?) strayed across the border, right?). Heck, the current regime in Iran is more outlaw than the DPRK, in terms of diplomatic protocols (our embassy) and the like, right?
  - zppx 17y ago
    As I said it is completely off-topic. I'm not trying to justify the Iranian regime, my father have dual Brazilian/Israeli citizenship and I do have the majority of my relatives living in Israel right now, I do not have any sympathy for Iran, but I still think we ignore some interesting facts (and useful if we are to understand the world around us) just because of animosities between countries or because governments needs to release propaganda against its enemies, this was for me the essence of this interview about North Korea. And I do agree with you about Iran at large, but there are far more problems with Iranian foreign policy, specially in relations with its neighboring countries.
zoba 17y ago
Is a minder just the person who watches over you when you visit North Korea?
- sorbus 17y ago
  Like a tour guide, only with a duty to constant watch visitors and keep them away from anything deemed unsuitable, including unsupervised talks with normal citizens. (Disclaimer: I haven't been to North Korea, this is just the definition I've gotten from what I've read about people who have. Take it with a grain of salt.)
  - jerf 17y ago
    Yes. Totalitarian regimes have been using those for a long time. In the anthology "Expanded Universe", Heinlein has an extended description of his trip to the USSR with his wife who could speak Russian, which they for some mysterious reason neglected to tell the Russians. North Korea may not be structurally communist, but this article really reminded me of Heinlein's story. There's definitely an established pattern of how a totalitarian regime deceives its visitors. (Which it desires despite the danger, as it wants the visitors to take back good propaganda to their host country. I suspect it's getting harder as the wealth gap grows larger every year. Even putting on a "decent face" is getting hard/expensive when you're from a country where the Wal-Mart, at or near the bottom of the wealth scale, is clean, brightly-lit, and full-to-overflowing of products for sale.)
djcjr 17y ago
When I saw the you can "read books" to see examples that "In other worlds, North Korea's depiction of itself is strikingly close to, say, the American right wing's depiction of North Korea as a rogue state", I was curious which books those are. By analogy, this is like writing up an essay "How 'Bob' sees himself, and why it matters", and concluding from your research that that poor sap Bob really does see himself as our US right-wingers do, and of course Bob is not around to confirm or deny the what is being claimed about how he thinks. Opportunity for wary skepticism, yes?
- teaspoon 17y ago
  I gather from the interview that Myers doesn't qualify for a North Korean library card, so the books he's referring to are probably available in the North Korean Information Center in Seoul, the Natation Archives in DC, or the Library of Congress. I don't find it suspicious that he's not dropping specific ISBNs in an interview, and substituting "Bob" for "North Korea" doesn't illuminate any opportunity for skepticism that I can see.

83 points by jaybol 17y ago

I saw the Mass Games in Pyongyang last year. This interview is spot-on that the North Korean ideology is tightly tied to race. Hitler would have loved to have the ability to put on such a show, and it was so beautifully done that by the end I was proud to be North Korean. Cultural pride can be weaponized.

jerf 17y ago
"Cultural pride can be weaponized": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power Not so much "can be" as "is".
elblanco 17y ago
Do tell more of this story!
- drinian 17y ago
  I've mentioned bits and pieces in relevant stories here before, but haven't put a coherent account of my five days in the DPRK anywhere online. Paul Karl Lukacs' somewhat colorful account was what inspired me to go, and starts here: http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2007/05/dprk-q.html http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2007/05/dprk-q.html Tourism is opening up a bit this year; you can now take a beach vacation in the DPRK, via Koryo Tours!

xenthral 17y ago

Christopher Hitchen's review of the book and YC discussion on it: http://www.slate.com/id/2243112/pagenum/all/ http://www.slate.com/id/2243112/pagenum/all/ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1094011 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1094011

forinti 17y ago

There are 24 million North Koreans and they earn per capita about 6% of what the 38 million South Koreans earn. In 1990 there were about 16 million East Germans and 63 million West Germans who earned only about twice as much. Twenty years on, East Germany is still behind. Given the economic and ideological differences, I think the Koreans are more likely to drift apart than to ever become one country again.

hga 17y ago
One should also note the physical and mental effects of pervasive malnutrition. I agree; I don't know about the "drift apart", but reunification is the last thing a bunch of South Koreans want. The above problems will take generations to correct.

zppx 17y ago

Off-topic, I have the impression that the same applies to US policy on Iran, the majority of people appears to not understand the Iranian revolution, the Iranian regime that followed, the divergence about Iran in the Shi'a world and even what Iranians do think about their country.

hga 17y ago
Not really relevant, I'd say. To get a useful analogy, assume the Confederates had won the "War Between the States" and following that this sort of split and lack of understanding developed. Even then, it's hard to imagine the Confederacy e.g. taking such a harsh line toward contacts of any sorts with the Union. That sort of next door, you were once part of us thing is very far removed from events on the other side of the globe in country with a very different (and ancient!) culture, religion, etc. And one where visiting during a lot of these events could result in death or something quite unpleasant (they're still holding those hikers who (maybe?) strayed across the border, right?). Heck, the current regime in Iran is more outlaw than the DPRK, in terms of diplomatic protocols (our embassy) and the like, right?
- zppx 17y ago
  As I said it is completely off-topic. I'm not trying to justify the Iranian regime, my father have dual Brazilian/Israeli citizenship and I do have the majority of my relatives living in Israel right now, I do not have any sympathy for Iran, but I still think we ignore some interesting facts (and useful if we are to understand the world around us) just because of animosities between countries or because governments needs to release propaganda against its enemies, this was for me the essence of this interview about North Korea. And I do agree with you about Iran at large, but there are far more problems with Iranian foreign policy, specially in relations with its neighboring countries.

zoba 17y ago

Is a minder just the person who watches over you when you visit North Korea?

sorbus 17y ago
Like a tour guide, only with a duty to constant watch visitors and keep them away from anything deemed unsuitable, including unsupervised talks with normal citizens. (Disclaimer: I haven't been to North Korea, this is just the definition I've gotten from what I've read about people who have. Take it with a grain of salt.)
- jerf 17y ago
  Yes. Totalitarian regimes have been using those for a long time. In the anthology "Expanded Universe", Heinlein has an extended description of his trip to the USSR with his wife who could speak Russian, which they for some mysterious reason neglected to tell the Russians. North Korea may not be structurally communist, but this article really reminded me of Heinlein's story. There's definitely an established pattern of how a totalitarian regime deceives its visitors. (Which it desires despite the danger, as it wants the visitors to take back good propaganda to their host country. I suspect it's getting harder as the wealth gap grows larger every year. Even putting on a "decent face" is getting hard/expensive when you're from a country where the Wal-Mart, at or near the bottom of the wealth scale, is clean, brightly-lit, and full-to-overflowing of products for sale.)

djcjr 17y ago

When I saw the you can "read books" to see examples that "In other worlds, North Korea's depiction of itself is strikingly close to, say, the American right wing's depiction of North Korea as a rogue state", I was curious which books those are. By analogy, this is like writing up an essay "How 'Bob' sees himself, and why it matters", and concluding from your research that that poor sap Bob really does see himself as our US right-wingers do, and of course Bob is not around to confirm or deny the what is being claimed about how he thinks. Opportunity for wary skepticism, yes?

teaspoon 17y ago
I gather from the interview that Myers doesn't qualify for a North Korean library card, so the books he's referring to are probably available in the North Korean Information Center in Seoul, the Natation Archives in DC, or the Library of Congress. I don't find it suspicious that he's not dropping specific ISBNs in an interview, and substituting "Bob" for "North Korea" doesn't illuminate any opportunity for skepticism that I can see.