4 ms·

I would just like to remind everyone of the words Obama spoke yesterday, "Now, everybody is sad when their side loses an election, but the day after we have to

I would just like to remind everyone of the words Obama spoke yesterday, "Now, everybody is sad when their side loses an election, but the day after we have to remember that we’re actually all on one team. This is an intramural scrimmage. We’re not Democrats first. We’re not Republicans first. We are Americans first. We’re patriots first. We all want what’s best for this country. That’s what I heard in Mr. Trump’s remarks last night. That’s what I heard when I spoke to him directly. And I was heartened by that. That’s what the country needs — a sense of unity, a sense of inclusion, a respect for our institutions, our way of life, rule of law, and respect for each other." Let's make sure our comments here are tolerant of others and devoid of hate at those we might not understand.

zimpenfish 10y ago
> a sense of inclusion Hard to take from a man who chose an virulent anti-LGBTQer as his VP running for a party with extensive anti-inclusionary policies as their platform. Edit: To correct VIP to VP.
- m52go 10y ago
  Then maybe it's our job to stand as a nation against their hate and show them we won't tolerate it. Forget The Man and remember yourself.
  - ulfw 10y ago
    What does that even mean? "stand as a nation against their hate" Stand how? Mass demonstrations each time he speaks or wants to do policy? "Forget the man and remember yourself" remember myself? huh? What does that do?
- andrepd 10y ago
  And science denier, climate change denier, anti-vaxxer, religious zealot, etc.
- riyadparvez 10y ago
  "inclusion" is one of the feel-good words which does not mean anything in real-life. Since this word is mostly used by liberals, I would start with the protected classes, e.g., homosexuals, religious minorities. How do you include religious Muslims and homosexuals in the same group? Homosexuals are regularly being prosecuted in Muslim-majority countries. Many Muslims (devout or not) are outright hostile to homosexuals. Do you include religious Muslims or homosexuals? Please let me know if you know a concrete solution of this problem, I'm eager to hear that.
  - zimpenfish 10y ago
    Since "same group" in this instance is "The society of The United States", it's quite easy. We manage it in the UK without everything collapsing (thus far.) If it helps, you can take "inclusion" to mean "has the same rights" - ie. Muslims, LGBTQ, women, etc. all have the same rights.
    - jules 10y ago
      It is interesting that you cite the UK as an example, because the US seems to be doing much better than the UK in this regard. Polls show that 100% of UK Muslims find homosexuality an unacceptable lifestyle choice, and more than half want homosexuality made illegal. Not gay marriage, homosexuality. Being inclusive and tolerant of intolerance works up to the point when the intolerant group is large enough to wield political power. > We manage it in the UK without everything collapsing (thus far.) This may turn out to be awfully prescient.
      - zimpenfish 10y ago
        https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... has the 52% wanting it illegal but nothing about the 100% against lifestyle choice. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-f... has the "100% against" figure but is from 2009 and not entirely relevant at this point. Either way, they're both included into UK society.
- epmaybe 10y ago
  That's the hardest part. I want to, I truly want to understand the other side, to make sense of what it is we can do to become more inclusive and accepting of everyone, to try and boost the entire country, not just parts of it. But it's so hard to do that when there's so much that I find morally and ethically reprehensible about the president-elect and the public statements him and many of his supporters have made.
  - Sacho 10y ago
    Okay well, let's try an experiment - tell me one thing you find morally or ethically reprehensible, and I'll try to provide you with one devil's advocate reason why the other side might consider it differently. Then we can do it the other way around. The dialogue between the two "opposing sides" has so completely broken down that "othering" is in full effect - there is no concept of what the "other side" wants, just third-party digestion of what someone thinks it wants. I'm not a Trump or Clinton supporter, although I'm biased for Trump and against Clinton, so I'll gladly take the first step. I've listened to some of Trump's speeches, and some of Clinton's speeches. I've also had a little bit of exposure to Obama's speeches, which I really liked. From my experience, Clinton's campaign has always had an undercurrent of contempt for opposing voters. I've looked around and seen other people have this belief - https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_a_candidate_insult_voters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_... Clinton even went so far as to label half of Trump's supporters as "deplorables....racist,sexist,homophobic..". Here's a discussion of that comment I've read - https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-Donald-Trump%E2%80%99s-supporters-%E2%80%9Ca-basket-of-deplorables%E2%80%9D https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-D... Madeleine Albright, when talking at a Clinton rally, said "there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-albright-campaigns-for-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-al... Gloria Steinem suggested that female Bernie voters are doing it "for the boys" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sanders-gloria-steinem-women-voters-men-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sande... You may have heard about "Bernie Bros" from the time Bernie was still a threat to her candidacy. It's not just attachments to her campaign, the media has been relentlessly supporting Clinton in labeling Trump supporters(or even anyone opposing Clinton) as racist and sexist. It doesn't stop with the media, it's her supporters as well, here's an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow One of the possible explanations of Trump's surprising victory is the social stigma of voting for him - http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-pre-election-polls-and-forecast-models-so-wrong-about-donald-trump http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-p... This worries me greatly, as a very zealous proponent of free speech - I wouldn't want a significant contingent of voters, enough to sway a whole election, to feel like they cannot voice their opinions publicly, even if I disagree with them. Considering all that, why do you think Clinton's campaign holds a moral high ground over Trump's? Why should I not be worried about this undercurrent of contempt for anyone politically opposed to her?
- rdtsc 10y ago
  Yet Trump was holding a rainbow flag at his rally: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/2/donald-trump-holds-high-flag-gay-equality/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/2/donald-trump-... and then got a lot of flak for it in Utah in christian newspapers and media for it. Maybe he'll keep Pence in check, who knows... Hillary being extremely "pro-LGBT" is also taken too much for granted. In one instance Hillary's crowd during the nightclub shooting was perceived to have thrown the gay community under the bus when they suppressed the news about it, because it might have had an "Islamic terrorist" component to it, so it would have hurt her slightly in her rhetoric. Many people have not forgot that. People noticed she took large donations from the Saudis and Qatar and other places like that. I know a some women who voted for him, certainly noticed that part. EDIT (another thing I thought of): During the process I was really fascinated with the media, new forms of media, popular media, etc. As part of that I was looking at how news spread on Reddit among Hillary and Trump supporters. One thing that was unexpected is that Trump's supporters included people from all walks of life: young, old, gays, transgender, Hispanic, Black, other minorities and they all were rather civil and respectful, they got along, all having fun with their frog mascot and whatnot. On the Hillary's side, there was a lot of hatred, condescension, as soon as someone mentioned anything critical about her, immediate downvotes and labels like "sexist" thrown around. It looked rather unhealthy. That militant attitude might come from the right place, but I can't imagine it being healthy, and I wonder if it cost her the election.
  - denzil_correa 10y ago
    > As part of that I was looking at how news spread on Reddit among Hillary and Trump supporters. One thing that was unexpected is that Trump's supporters included people from all walks of life: young, old, gays, transgender, Hispanic, Black, other minorities and they all were rather civil and respectful, they got along, all having fun with their frog mascot and whatnot. You found Trump supporters on Reddit to be civil and respectful?!
    - rdtsc 10y ago
      > You found Trump supporters on Reddit to be civil and respectful?! I should have qualified it with "more than I expected". I just expected a lot worse, and at the same time expected a lot more from Hillary's crowd. Also I meant they got along with each other and I didn't see the expected "gay bashing" or racial slurs and so on. Those are things someone coming from the left and liberal side might assume. Especially since there is anonymity online, there is absolutely no reason for them to hold those things back. As for Hillary's side, it was sad to see how using that same anonymity, the ugly, intolerant, condescending and frankly childish behavior showing.
- SpikeDad 10y ago
  Yea. This fact is commonly being forgotten. Not on is the man anti-LGBTQ he's a total con artist. His money is from his father, he's been bankrupt a number of times only to be bailed out by his father and banks that peddle his name for their own benefit. He has no conception of togetherness, of sacrificing one's own goals for the good of the larger group. He's part of the gang that's shit on the Constitution, obstructed government for their own petty reasons and have no issue with legislating to punish people that didn't vote for them. Sadly the Democrats will try to take the high road, give in on terrible laws just to make it appear that we're not obstructing in hopes of - I don't even know what. Everyone is singing the praises of the Republicans for seeing the real America except for the fact that the real America is a scared, selfish bunch of folks. If Trump had ANY ACTUAL CRED then I would feel less sad. Everyone is acting as if Trump can actually do something - there is zero evidence of that other than he can lie like no one's business.

zimpenfish 10y ago

> a sense of inclusion Hard to take from a man who chose an virulent anti-LGBTQer as his VP running for a party with extensive anti-inclusionary policies as their platform. Edit: To correct VIP to VP.

m52go 10y ago
Then maybe it's our job to stand as a nation against their hate and show them we won't tolerate it. Forget The Man and remember yourself.
- ulfw 10y ago
  What does that even mean? "stand as a nation against their hate" Stand how? Mass demonstrations each time he speaks or wants to do policy? "Forget the man and remember yourself" remember myself? huh? What does that do?
andrepd 10y ago
And science denier, climate change denier, anti-vaxxer, religious zealot, etc.
riyadparvez 10y ago
"inclusion" is one of the feel-good words which does not mean anything in real-life. Since this word is mostly used by liberals, I would start with the protected classes, e.g., homosexuals, religious minorities. How do you include religious Muslims and homosexuals in the same group? Homosexuals are regularly being prosecuted in Muslim-majority countries. Many Muslims (devout or not) are outright hostile to homosexuals. Do you include religious Muslims or homosexuals? Please let me know if you know a concrete solution of this problem, I'm eager to hear that.
- zimpenfish 10y ago
  Since "same group" in this instance is "The society of The United States", it's quite easy. We manage it in the UK without everything collapsing (thus far.) If it helps, you can take "inclusion" to mean "has the same rights" - ie. Muslims, LGBTQ, women, etc. all have the same rights.
  - jules 10y ago
    It is interesting that you cite the UK as an example, because the US seems to be doing much better than the UK in this regard. Polls show that 100% of UK Muslims find homosexuality an unacceptable lifestyle choice, and more than half want homosexuality made illegal. Not gay marriage, homosexuality. Being inclusive and tolerant of intolerance works up to the point when the intolerant group is large enough to wield political power. > We manage it in the UK without everything collapsing (thus far.) This may turn out to be awfully prescient.
    - zimpenfish 10y ago
      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl... has the 52% wanting it illegal but nothing about the 100% against lifestyle choice. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-f... has the "100% against" figure but is from 2009 and not entirely relevant at this point. Either way, they're both included into UK society.
epmaybe 10y ago
That's the hardest part. I want to, I truly want to understand the other side, to make sense of what it is we can do to become more inclusive and accepting of everyone, to try and boost the entire country, not just parts of it. But it's so hard to do that when there's so much that I find morally and ethically reprehensible about the president-elect and the public statements him and many of his supporters have made.
- Sacho 10y ago
  Okay well, let's try an experiment - tell me one thing you find morally or ethically reprehensible, and I'll try to provide you with one devil's advocate reason why the other side might consider it differently. Then we can do it the other way around. The dialogue between the two "opposing sides" has so completely broken down that "othering" is in full effect - there is no concept of what the "other side" wants, just third-party digestion of what someone thinks it wants. I'm not a Trump or Clinton supporter, although I'm biased for Trump and against Clinton, so I'll gladly take the first step. I've listened to some of Trump's speeches, and some of Clinton's speeches. I've also had a little bit of exposure to Obama's speeches, which I really liked. From my experience, Clinton's campaign has always had an undercurrent of contempt for opposing voters. I've looked around and seen other people have this belief - https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_a_candidate_insult_voters/ https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/45paoo/why_would_... Clinton even went so far as to label half of Trump's supporters as "deplorables....racist,sexist,homophobic..". Here's a discussion of that comment I've read - https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-Donald-Trump%E2%80%99s-supporters-%E2%80%9Ca-basket-of-deplorables%E2%80%9D https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Hillary-Clinton-call-half-of-D... Madeleine Albright, when talking at a Clinton rally, said "there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-albright-campaigns-for-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/madeleine-al... Gloria Steinem suggested that female Bernie voters are doing it "for the boys" - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sanders-gloria-steinem-women-voters-men-hillary-clinton https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/06/bernie-sande... You may have heard about "Bernie Bros" from the time Bernie was still a threat to her candidacy. It's not just attachments to her campaign, the media has been relentlessly supporting Clinton in labeling Trump supporters(or even anyone opposing Clinton) as racist and sexist. It doesn't stop with the media, it's her supporters as well, here's an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4wXAUFAow One of the possible explanations of Trump's surprising victory is the social stigma of voting for him - http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-pre-election-polls-and-forecast-models-so-wrong-about-donald-trump http://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/13075/why-were-p... This worries me greatly, as a very zealous proponent of free speech - I wouldn't want a significant contingent of voters, enough to sway a whole election, to feel like they cannot voice their opinions publicly, even if I disagree with them. Considering all that, why do you think Clinton's campaign holds a moral high ground over Trump's? Why should I not be worried about this undercurrent of contempt for anyone politically opposed to her?
rdtsc 10y ago
Yet Trump was holding a rainbow flag at his rally: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/2/donald-trump-holds-high-flag-gay-equality/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/2/donald-trump-... and then got a lot of flak for it in Utah in christian newspapers and media for it. Maybe he'll keep Pence in check, who knows... Hillary being extremely "pro-LGBT" is also taken too much for granted. In one instance Hillary's crowd during the nightclub shooting was perceived to have thrown the gay community under the bus when they suppressed the news about it, because it might have had an "Islamic terrorist" component to it, so it would have hurt her slightly in her rhetoric. Many people have not forgot that. People noticed she took large donations from the Saudis and Qatar and other places like that. I know a some women who voted for him, certainly noticed that part. EDIT (another thing I thought of): During the process I was really fascinated with the media, new forms of media, popular media, etc. As part of that I was looking at how news spread on Reddit among Hillary and Trump supporters. One thing that was unexpected is that Trump's supporters included people from all walks of life: young, old, gays, transgender, Hispanic, Black, other minorities and they all were rather civil and respectful, they got along, all having fun with their frog mascot and whatnot. On the Hillary's side, there was a lot of hatred, condescension, as soon as someone mentioned anything critical about her, immediate downvotes and labels like "sexist" thrown around. It looked rather unhealthy. That militant attitude might come from the right place, but I can't imagine it being healthy, and I wonder if it cost her the election.
- denzil_correa 10y ago
  > As part of that I was looking at how news spread on Reddit among Hillary and Trump supporters. One thing that was unexpected is that Trump's supporters included people from all walks of life: young, old, gays, transgender, Hispanic, Black, other minorities and they all were rather civil and respectful, they got along, all having fun with their frog mascot and whatnot. You found Trump supporters on Reddit to be civil and respectful?!
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    > You found Trump supporters on Reddit to be civil and respectful?! I should have qualified it with "more than I expected". I just expected a lot worse, and at the same time expected a lot more from Hillary's crowd. Also I meant they got along with each other and I didn't see the expected "gay bashing" or racial slurs and so on. Those are things someone coming from the left and liberal side might assume. Especially since there is anonymity online, there is absolutely no reason for them to hold those things back. As for Hillary's side, it was sad to see how using that same anonymity, the ugly, intolerant, condescending and frankly childish behavior showing.
SpikeDad 10y ago
Yea. This fact is commonly being forgotten. Not on is the man anti-LGBTQ he's a total con artist. His money is from his father, he's been bankrupt a number of times only to be bailed out by his father and banks that peddle his name for their own benefit. He has no conception of togetherness, of sacrificing one's own goals for the good of the larger group. He's part of the gang that's shit on the Constitution, obstructed government for their own petty reasons and have no issue with legislating to punish people that didn't vote for them. Sadly the Democrats will try to take the high road, give in on terrible laws just to make it appear that we're not obstructing in hopes of - I don't even know what. Everyone is singing the praises of the Republicans for seeing the real America except for the fact that the real America is a scared, selfish bunch of folks. If Trump had ANY ACTUAL CRED then I would feel less sad. Everyone is acting as if Trump can actually do something - there is zero evidence of that other than he can lie like no one's business.