5 ms·

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crim

by dep_b 10y ago

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And there's a constant flood of people trying to get into clubs with shooting ranges, the only way to get a gun legally in The Netherlands if you're not in the police or the army. So people don't trust the government anymore in protecting them and they take rights into their own hands. Not a socialist paradise that's so right and just that nobody commits crimes anymore. ------- Edit 2: I'm not telling that it's not a safe place. I'm telling that when something does happen you shouldn't rely on the police to fix it. ------- Thanks for the down votes without knowing the facts. There are many sources, this is one of the more recent: https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-verschillen-in-nederlands-en-duits-recht https://duitslandinstituut.nl/artikel/10090/opvallende-versc... WhatsApp neighbourhood patrols: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt-op-in-buurten-1593855-a1140157 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/02/29/waken-met-whatsapp-rukt... http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/2799774/2016/07/19/Burgerwacht-Soldiers-of-Odin-jaagt-op-criminele-asielzoekers-in-Nederland.dhtml http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/27997... Apart from that every shooting range has a huge waiting list nowadays. Just pick the ones closest to you.

askmike 10y ago
I've lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years in 5 different cities (in a small town like Geldermalsen as well as Amsterdam) and I have never experienced anything like that.. In all the places I've lived I (and everyone around me) always felt extremely safe. ----- EDIT: those are some weird sources: - first link is a dutch website called "Germany institute". It doesn't say anything about 40% non solvency (or 80% solvency in Germany). - second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. - third link is a belgium website talking about an extreme right winged finnish watch that has been to the netherlands one time.
- dep_b 10y ago
  For example: https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op-de-tien-misdrijven-in-nederland-wordt-nooit-opgelost/278856112084-474d5e9e https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op... But why don't you post some counter information? Or inform yourself while not finding any information that supports your opinion at all. > second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. You can try to ridicule it but it's not going to change the fact that it's getting really big. Because those watches are the official ones that are registered, not some angry dads from the neighbourhood united in a WhatsApp group. ----- Not sure why I can't reply to you. But we're not talking about corruption or general safety. We're talking about the police giving you a cold shoulder when something does happen.
  - askmike 10y ago
    What about this from the US Overseas Security Advisory Council (HN is US focussed, why don't we use US based/english sources?): https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=17453 https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=174... > Police response and capabilities are comparable to other Western European countries. Professionalism and competence are high, and corruption and tolerance of corruption are low. > Crime Rating: Low > Although rare, violent crime does happen > travel by road is relatively safe in comparison to some other European countries
thijsc 10y ago
I've lived in the Netherlands my whole life. It is true that the solved crime rate is pretty low, but the rest of your comment is complete nonsense.
neogenix 10y ago
Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.
- mcv 10y ago
  I notice that most of the people who disagree live in Amsterdam. Maybe it's different in other cities. Or in more rural areas.
  - dep_b 10y ago
    Those groups are a big trend in places with more tight-knit communities. Amsterdam is quite individualistic and in some ways the city got cleaned up quite a bit compared to the 80s when it was full of heroin junkies. I think the free heroin plan is one of the best things ever. In rural areas people experience more crime than before and the police is not that willing to solve cases.
  - akvadrako 10y ago
    Most Dutch people I've met consider Amsterdam to be one of the most dangerous places in the country and prefer to raise kids in more suburban setting. The statistics do say a few other cities are more dangerous, but overall Amsterdam is representative.
    - mcv 10y ago
      I can't think of a better place to raise my kids than Amsterdam, actually. Much better than the dreary suburban town I grew up in.
- cyphax 10y ago
  This might give some insight as to where the 40% comes from (the image shows numbers up to 40%, interestingly) but it's an aggregate number, not violent crimes per se (it's in Dutch but the infographic is about the numbers anyway): https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/24/een-kaart-om-misdaad-te-snappen-1601239-a890367 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/24/een-kaart-om-misdaad-te... (I'm assuming that you were referring to the percentage given when you asked for data to back "that" up :)
mcv 10y ago
Not sure what it's like in other cities, but Amsterdam is pretty safe in my experience. Some parts of Amsterdam had a pretty bad reputation 15 years ago, but that too seems to be a lot less these days.
akvadrako 10y ago
I would down vote you if I could, because you are being very disingenuous. I have never lived anywhere as safe as Holland, backed up both by statistics and the general atmosphere. Just to be clear, what percentage of neighbourhood's have WhatApp patrols? I bet it's under 0.1%. If you feel unsafe in Holland you should be terrified to live in the US: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands...
- dep_b 10y ago
  Maybe it would be a good moment to reflect on yourself and analyse why the things I say make you angry. It's all backed up by data and facts. If you would take time to read the source (sorry if you can't read Dutch: the registered number of groups was 661, which is 40% of all municipalities) you wouldn't respond like that. The NRC is a very reliable (but a bit progressive liberal) newspaper. I don't care about the US. This story is about The Netherlands and the "miracle" of empty prisons. I don't say you shouldn't feel safe, but I'm telling that things don't seem to be improving at least. Unless you live in Amsterdam?
  - akvadrako 10y ago
    It doesn't make me angry, but you are giving people a bad impression. So you are not comparing The Netherlands to other countries but instead to it's past self? That isn't clear at all from your post. And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?
    - dep_b 10y ago
      I'm reading a story about Dutch prisons with a lot of halleluja stories about how great the Dutch government is handling things, while the actual chance of getting convicted if you do something is getting lower every year together with the fact that fewer people actually report crimes. That also leads to less people in prison, or not? I don't mind that people get second chances and help after they were convicted for their crimes, but they are simply not getting arrested in the first place. Why would I compare The Netherlands to a country that's completely different like the US? That would make no sense. Germany is a very similar country. > And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing? I never said that? Self-reliance in solving or preventing crimes is increasing.
thijsc 10y ago
It's not that your sources are nonsense, you're just drawing an unfounded conclusion from them. The Whatsapp patrol described in the article is completely different from the goon squad you're implying it is. It's mainly an early detection system, people would call the police as soon as they see something happening.
YorickPeterse 10y ago
Dutch citizen here, this is bullshit. Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. > Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. You miss the part where we have very strict gun ownership rules, and very few have guns. > Thanks for the down votes without knowing the facts. You are being downvoted because what you provide aren't facts. You linked to a news article about neighbourhood watches, an article about a group of extremists/xenophobes, and an article about Dutch vs German law. None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country where citizens take matters into their own hands, etc.
- dep_b 10y ago
  > Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, True, Germany has about the same amount of police force per capita. It's just spent better. > it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin > None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country It's also never implied by me. > where citizens take matters into their own hands They just need to police themselves a bit where the government fails, right?
  - ryanlol 10y ago
    >Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin What's worrying about that? The neighbourhood watchman was violently attacked and successfully defended himself. That particular incident seems to demonstrate that the neighbourhood watch existed for a reason.
    - sqeaky 10y ago
      That case is extremely cloudy. There is no way to know what actually happened. But witnesses range from unreasonably in favor of the shooter: "Trayvon was reaching for a gun after be loud and beligerent and was shot in clear self defense", all the way to unreasonably in favor of the shot: "Trayvon was shot in cold blood and broad daylight by a bigot and a the shooter was let free because of institutional racism". To claim you know what happened is extremely showing of your lack of understanding of the situation or of your implicit bias.
ordinary 10y ago
People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. I have seen the signs for these WhatsApp groups in my own neighbourhood, but I think you're mischaracterizing them. These groups (and the signs that come with them) have existed for decades: "Attentie, buurtpreventie". They're just embracing modern technology. If their formation inevitably lead to armed militias roaming the streets, then we would've seen them by now. Groups like these crossing the line would be a result of other changes in Dutch society.
deleted 10y ago
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by dep_b 10y ago

askmike 10y ago

I've lived in the Netherlands for over 20 years in 5 different cities (in a small town like Geldermalsen as well as Amsterdam) and I have never experienced anything like that.. In all the places I've lived I (and everyone around me) always felt extremely safe. ----- EDIT: those are some weird sources: - first link is a dutch website called "Germany institute". It doesn't say anything about 40% non solvency (or 80% solvency in Germany). - second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. - third link is a belgium website talking about an extreme right winged finnish watch that has been to the netherlands one time.

dep_b 10y ago
For example: https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op-de-tien-misdrijven-in-nederland-wordt-nooit-opgelost/278856112084-474d5e9e https://decorrespondent.nl/2038/opheldering-verzocht-acht-op... But why don't you post some counter information? Or inform yourself while not finding any information that supports your opinion at all. > second link talks about how neighbourhood watches have grown five fold, to a whapping 661 watches over 17 million people. You can try to ridicule it but it's not going to change the fact that it's getting really big. Because those watches are the official ones that are registered, not some angry dads from the neighbourhood united in a WhatsApp group. ----- Not sure why I can't reply to you. But we're not talking about corruption or general safety. We're talking about the police giving you a cold shoulder when something does happen.
- askmike 10y ago
  What about this from the US Overseas Security Advisory Council (HN is US focussed, why don't we use US based/english sources?): https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=17453 https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=174... > Police response and capabilities are comparable to other Western European countries. Professionalism and competence are high, and corruption and tolerance of corruption are low. > Crime Rating: Low > Although rare, violent crime does happen > travel by road is relatively safe in comparison to some other European countries

thijsc 10y ago

I've lived in the Netherlands my whole life. It is true that the solved crime rate is pretty low, but the rest of your comment is complete nonsense.

neogenix 10y ago

Any data to back that up? I've lived all my live in Amsterdam and this is the first time I've heard of this. It sounds made up.

mcv 10y ago
I notice that most of the people who disagree live in Amsterdam. Maybe it's different in other cities. Or in more rural areas.
- dep_b 10y ago
  Those groups are a big trend in places with more tight-knit communities. Amsterdam is quite individualistic and in some ways the city got cleaned up quite a bit compared to the 80s when it was full of heroin junkies. I think the free heroin plan is one of the best things ever. In rural areas people experience more crime than before and the police is not that willing to solve cases.
- akvadrako 10y ago
  Most Dutch people I've met consider Amsterdam to be one of the most dangerous places in the country and prefer to raise kids in more suburban setting. The statistics do say a few other cities are more dangerous, but overall Amsterdam is representative.
  - mcv 10y ago
    I can't think of a better place to raise my kids than Amsterdam, actually. Much better than the dreary suburban town I grew up in.
cyphax 10y ago
This might give some insight as to where the 40% comes from (the image shows numbers up to 40%, interestingly) but it's an aggregate number, not violent crimes per se (it's in Dutch but the infographic is about the numbers anyway): https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/24/een-kaart-om-misdaad-te-snappen-1601239-a890367 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2016/03/24/een-kaart-om-misdaad-te... (I'm assuming that you were referring to the percentage given when you asked for data to back "that" up :)

mcv 10y ago

Not sure what it's like in other cities, but Amsterdam is pretty safe in my experience. Some parts of Amsterdam had a pretty bad reputation 15 years ago, but that too seems to be a lot less these days.

akvadrako 10y ago

I would down vote you if I could, because you are being very disingenuous. I have never lived anywhere as safe as Holland, backed up both by statistics and the general atmosphere. Just to be clear, what percentage of neighbourhood's have WhatApp patrols? I bet it's under 0.1%. If you feel unsafe in Holland you should be terrified to live in the US: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands/United-States/Crime http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands...

dep_b 10y ago
Maybe it would be a good moment to reflect on yourself and analyse why the things I say make you angry. It's all backed up by data and facts. If you would take time to read the source (sorry if you can't read Dutch: the registered number of groups was 661, which is 40% of all municipalities) you wouldn't respond like that. The NRC is a very reliable (but a bit progressive liberal) newspaper. I don't care about the US. This story is about The Netherlands and the "miracle" of empty prisons. I don't say you shouldn't feel safe, but I'm telling that things don't seem to be improving at least. Unless you live in Amsterdam?
- akvadrako 10y ago
  It doesn't make me angry, but you are giving people a bad impression. So you are not comparing The Netherlands to other countries but instead to it's past self? That isn't clear at all from your post. And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?
  - dep_b 10y ago
    I'm reading a story about Dutch prisons with a lot of halleluja stories about how great the Dutch government is handling things, while the actual chance of getting convicted if you do something is getting lower every year together with the fact that fewer people actually report crimes. That also leads to less people in prison, or not? I don't mind that people get second chances and help after they were convicted for their crimes, but they are simply not getting arrested in the first place. Why would I compare The Netherlands to a country that's completely different like the US? That would make no sense. Germany is a very similar country. > And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing? I never said that? Self-reliance in solving or preventing crimes is increasing.

thijsc 10y ago

It's not that your sources are nonsense, you're just drawing an unfounded conclusion from them. The Whatsapp patrol described in the article is completely different from the goon squad you're implying it is. It's mainly an early detection system, people would call the police as soon as they see something happening.

YorickPeterse 10y ago

Dutch citizen here, this is bullshit. Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. > Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. You miss the part where we have very strict gun ownership rules, and very few have guns. > Thanks for the down votes without knowing the facts. You are being downvoted because what you provide aren't facts. You linked to a news article about neighbourhood watches, an article about a group of extremists/xenophobes, and an article about Dutch vs German law. None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country where citizens take matters into their own hands, etc.

dep_b 10y ago
> Neighbourhood watches using WhatsApp has nothing to do with a lack of police force, True, Germany has about the same amount of police force per capita. It's just spent better. > it's simply an "add-on" so neighbours can report suspicious behaviour to others. Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin > None of this proves that The Netherlands is the a "dangerous" country It's also never implied by me. > where citizens take matters into their own hands They just need to police themselves a bit where the government fails, right?
- ryanlol 10y ago
  >Why this worries me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin What's worrying about that? The neighbourhood watchman was violently attacked and successfully defended himself. That particular incident seems to demonstrate that the neighbourhood watch existed for a reason.
  - sqeaky 10y ago
    That case is extremely cloudy. There is no way to know what actually happened. But witnesses range from unreasonably in favor of the shooter: "Trayvon was reaching for a gun after be loud and beligerent and was shot in clear self defense", all the way to unreasonably in favor of the shot: "Trayvon was shot in cold blood and broad daylight by a bigot and a the shooter was let free because of institutional racism". To claim you know what happened is extremely showing of your lack of understanding of the situation or of your implicit bias.

ordinary 10y ago

People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. I have seen the signs for these WhatsApp groups in my own neighbourhood, but I think you're mischaracterizing them. These groups (and the signs that come with them) have existed for decades: "Attentie, buurtpreventie". They're just embracing modern technology. If their formation inevitably lead to armed militias roaming the streets, then we would've seen them by now. Groups like these crossing the line would be a result of other changes in Dutch society.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]