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So then what's your alternative? Would you prefer a system without politicians? What kind of system is that? We must elect trustworthy politicians, we must mak

by blintz 10y ago

So then what's your alternative? Would you prefer a system without politicians? What kind of system is that? We must elect trustworthy politicians, we must make it harder for big money to interfere, and we must have faith in our government. It's hard for me to say right now, given our current president-elect, but it's true. There truly is no good alternative to democracy.

susam 10y ago
Your comment reminds me of the following famous quote by Winston Churchill. "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -- Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)
mindcrime 10y ago
Would you prefer a system without politicians? Yes. What kind of system is that? Self-government[1] and/or a stateless society[2]. [1]: https://www.theadvocates.org/ https://www.theadvocates.org/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society
- exergy 10y ago
  I'm sorry, but that sounds like the kind of thing an edy 18 year old would say. There are no examples of 350 million people being governed WITHOUT a government, and for good reasons.
  - mindcrime 10y ago
    There are no examples of... There never is, until the first time. If nobody tried to do things that haven't been done before, there would be no progress. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." ~~ George Bernard Shaw I'm sorry, but that sounds like the kind of thing an edy 18 year old would say. Please don't do that, this is HN, not Reddit.
    - kefka 10y ago
      You're thinking of Greg Egan's idea of "Stateless", the illegal biotech'ed island. In that story, the technology and the island defends egalitarian principles and organized 'no-ruler-ship' (anarchy). I certainly think anarchy could work, if the underlying technological stuffs were the enforcers of equality. *The book is called "Distress", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_(novel)
    - jjnoakes 10y ago
      > this is HN, not Reddit. Please don't do that. There's no need to smear other sites. Ending the sentence at "Please don't do that." should suffice.
    - exergy 10y ago
      It has nothing to do with reddit, and everything to do with rose-tinted glasses, since you still haven't given me an example that could serve as an inspiration. Words in a book and italicised quotes are great, but not how the world functions unfortunately. For ezanple, I'd introduce a worldwide carbon tax tomorrow and make preventing further climate change priority number one at the expense of just about everything else. One of my favorite environmental scientists, stephen schneider always used to say that we should never let the perfect get in the way of the good. As much as we'd like to believe otherwise, virtually ALL progress is incremental. Technological AND societal.
      - mindcrime 10y ago
        since you still haven't given me an example that could serve as an inspiration I'm sorry, why should I feel obligated to give you an example? Like I already said once, there are no examples of something that hasn't been done... yet. So your repeated request for something that isn't required strikes me as kinda pointless.
baddox 10y ago
While any such system would obviously be a radical change from our current system, such systems do exist both conceptually and historically, and it's not just stateless societies. The most obvious example is sortition, whereby officials are selected randomly. Again, applying that everywhere overnight is obviously radical, but the idea is fairly sound. It's how jury duty works in the United States, and it's how Athenian democracy (mostly) worked.
- Elrac 10y ago
  That this is how jury duty works doesn't inspire me with a lot of confidence. Case in point: A couple of weeks ago, a jury acquitted the Bundys after they'd occupied a federal building and used threat of lethal force to keep federal authorities from evicting them. If you'll pardon my snark, this is what happens when you turn jurisprudence over to a handful of rednecks. Along very similar lines, modern-day politicians make decisions affecting (in some cases) millions of lives and trillions of Dollars. The issues they decide on are complex, and ideally we'd want lawmakers to really work at their "trade:" To deeply study the issues and consult competent experts. Our current crop of professional career politicians, some of whom are evolution and warming deniers heading up education and environmental/energy committees are spectacularly failing to live up to this expectation, and there's no good reason to believe a selection of people randomly chosen from the population would do better, on average.

by blintz 10y ago

susam 10y ago

Your comment reminds me of the following famous quote by Winston Churchill. "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." -- Speech in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)

mindcrime 10y ago

Would you prefer a system without politicians? Yes. What kind of system is that? Self-government[1] and/or a stateless society[2]. [1]: https://www.theadvocates.org/ https://www.theadvocates.org/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_society

exergy 10y ago
I'm sorry, but that sounds like the kind of thing an edy 18 year old would say. There are no examples of 350 million people being governed WITHOUT a government, and for good reasons.
- mindcrime 10y ago
  There are no examples of... There never is, until the first time. If nobody tried to do things that haven't been done before, there would be no progress. "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." ~~ George Bernard Shaw I'm sorry, but that sounds like the kind of thing an edy 18 year old would say. Please don't do that, this is HN, not Reddit.
  - kefka 10y ago
    You're thinking of Greg Egan's idea of "Stateless", the illegal biotech'ed island. In that story, the technology and the island defends egalitarian principles and organized 'no-ruler-ship' (anarchy). I certainly think anarchy could work, if the underlying technological stuffs were the enforcers of equality. *The book is called "Distress", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distress_(novel)
  - jjnoakes 10y ago
    > this is HN, not Reddit. Please don't do that. There's no need to smear other sites. Ending the sentence at "Please don't do that." should suffice.
  - exergy 10y ago
    It has nothing to do with reddit, and everything to do with rose-tinted glasses, since you still haven't given me an example that could serve as an inspiration. Words in a book and italicised quotes are great, but not how the world functions unfortunately. For ezanple, I'd introduce a worldwide carbon tax tomorrow and make preventing further climate change priority number one at the expense of just about everything else. One of my favorite environmental scientists, stephen schneider always used to say that we should never let the perfect get in the way of the good. As much as we'd like to believe otherwise, virtually ALL progress is incremental. Technological AND societal.
    - mindcrime 10y ago
      since you still haven't given me an example that could serve as an inspiration I'm sorry, why should I feel obligated to give you an example? Like I already said once, there are no examples of something that hasn't been done... yet. So your repeated request for something that isn't required strikes me as kinda pointless.

baddox 10y ago

While any such system would obviously be a radical change from our current system, such systems do exist both conceptually and historically, and it's not just stateless societies. The most obvious example is sortition, whereby officials are selected randomly. Again, applying that everywhere overnight is obviously radical, but the idea is fairly sound. It's how jury duty works in the United States, and it's how Athenian democracy (mostly) worked.

Elrac 10y ago
That this is how jury duty works doesn't inspire me with a lot of confidence. Case in point: A couple of weeks ago, a jury acquitted the Bundys after they'd occupied a federal building and used threat of lethal force to keep federal authorities from evicting them. If you'll pardon my snark, this is what happens when you turn jurisprudence over to a handful of rednecks. Along very similar lines, modern-day politicians make decisions affecting (in some cases) millions of lives and trillions of Dollars. The issues they decide on are complex, and ideally we'd want lawmakers to really work at their "trade:" To deeply study the issues and consult competent experts. Our current crop of professional career politicians, some of whom are evolution and warming deniers heading up education and environmental/energy committees are spectacularly failing to live up to this expectation, and there's no good reason to believe a selection of people randomly chosen from the population would do better, on average.