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So you're saying that it's perfectly normal for a non-racist person to support a candidate who openly argued for deporting huge swaths of honest workers and enf

So you're saying that it's perfectly normal for a non-racist person to support a candidate who openly argued for deporting huge swaths of honest workers and enforce by law racial and religious discrimination?

oldmanjay 10y ago
I'm saying that if you believe you can so trivially comprehend and dismiss the emotional state of tens of millions of people who until today you possibly didn't even want to admit exist, you're fooling yourself badly.
- asdfasdfa11112 10y ago
  To add on, part of the galvanizing force that created the political block (those tens of millions) was they don't like GP's exact attitude! People really, really, really, don't like it when you deny or trivialize their experience. I think it was the final straw that led to the Trump victory.
- sirtaj 10y ago
  Whatever the emotional state, in the end they supported the candidate openly espousing racist and misogynist opinions, and is on the record saying he sexually assaults women. Maybe the people who voted for him aren't themselves racists and misogynists, but they sure as hell didn't think that stuff was important enough not to vote for him.
  - dummkopf99 10y ago
    They didn't. He won. Deal with it.
    - sirtaj 10y ago
      A content-free comment.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    > is on the record saying he sexually assaults women This is a good thing to touch on, because it very handily demonstrates an area where differing opinions became a crux upon which the election turned. Trump was "on the record" joking around in a manner that, despite Clintonian assertion otherwise, is not at all uncommon, amongst men and women. It is, also despite assertion, not universally accepted that offensive words are equivalent to harmful actions. For instance, although I did not vote for Trump, I will never accept this precept as valid. The racism and sexism are sort of victims of their own overuse. I've said, unto exhaustion, that fighting sexism with sexism and racism with racism is equivalent to fighting a fire with fuel, but political beliefs state that racism against whites and sexism against males is justified and therefore non-existent, so it gets deployed rampantly. This election is one obvious result.
    - sirtaj 10y ago
      > The racism and sexism are sort of victims of their own overuse. Or possibly there's just a lot of it around.
bzbarsky 10y ago
The problem with this argument as stated is that it has a hard time accounting for the millions of Hispanic voters who voted for Trump... unless you think they are actually self-hating anti-Hispanic racists or something. (Yes, I know more hispanics voted for Clinton than for Trump, but the split was nowhere close to 100-0. It wasn't even close to the 88-12 or so that African-American voters split for Clinton.)
- deadringerr 10y ago
  The Hispanic population is still overwhelmingly Catholic[0]. There will always be sway when abortion is on the table. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/upshot/even-as-hispanics-lift-catholicism-theyre-leaving-it.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/upshot/even-as-hispanics-l...
  - bzbarsky 10y ago
    Sure. And there are other reasons they might have voted for Trump too. I'm just saying that clearly people can vote for him without endorsing his position on some particular issue, even one that cuts very close to them. The parent of my comment was saying that this was abnormal, whereas it is (sadly, perhaps?) quite common in voting.
    - deadringerr 10y ago
      Right, I was supporting your argument by providing one historically consistent potential reason for endorsement from that segment of the population.
  - bzbarsky 10y ago
    One other thing: Trump got about the same fraction of the Latino vote as Romney in 2012 and McCain in 2008, to within exit poll survey error. The actual cited number for him is between those for McCain and Romney. See http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/hillary-clinton-wins-latino-vote-but-falls-below-2012-support-for-obama/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/hillary-clin... So apparently he's no more abnormal than McCain and Romney were, to those voters. Or at least they felt their other options this time were a lot worse. Or something. It's hard to draw a hard conclusion from the numbers here.
djrogers 10y ago
Unless we manage to create a parallel universe where the 11-15 million illegal immigrants are Canadian instead of Mexican, to test against, I don't think you can definitively state that support for enforcement of immigration law constitutes racism. I don't think a person who's construction job was taken away by an under-the-table worker really cares what color the other person's skin is, the milk and bread he can't afford now leaves the same hole in his pantry. Same thing for software development offshoring - is it racist for those out-of-work Disney engineers to want their jobs back?
djrogers 10y ago
Unless we manage to create a parallel universe where the 11-15 million illegal immigrants are Canadian instead of Mexican, to test against, I don't think you can definitively state that support for enforcement of immigration law constitutes racism. I don't think a person who's construction job was taken away by an under-the-table worker really cares what color the other person's skin is, the milk and bread he can't afford now leaves the same hole in his pantry. Same thing for software development offshoring - is it racist for those out-of-work Disney engineers to want their jobs back?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

oldmanjay 10y ago

I'm saying that if you believe you can so trivially comprehend and dismiss the emotional state of tens of millions of people who until today you possibly didn't even want to admit exist, you're fooling yourself badly.

asdfasdfa11112 10y ago
To add on, part of the galvanizing force that created the political block (those tens of millions) was they don't like GP's exact attitude! People really, really, really, don't like it when you deny or trivialize their experience. I think it was the final straw that led to the Trump victory.
sirtaj 10y ago
Whatever the emotional state, in the end they supported the candidate openly espousing racist and misogynist opinions, and is on the record saying he sexually assaults women. Maybe the people who voted for him aren't themselves racists and misogynists, but they sure as hell didn't think that stuff was important enough not to vote for him.
- dummkopf99 10y ago
  They didn't. He won. Deal with it.
  - sirtaj 10y ago
    A content-free comment.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  > is on the record saying he sexually assaults women This is a good thing to touch on, because it very handily demonstrates an area where differing opinions became a crux upon which the election turned. Trump was "on the record" joking around in a manner that, despite Clintonian assertion otherwise, is not at all uncommon, amongst men and women. It is, also despite assertion, not universally accepted that offensive words are equivalent to harmful actions. For instance, although I did not vote for Trump, I will never accept this precept as valid. The racism and sexism are sort of victims of their own overuse. I've said, unto exhaustion, that fighting sexism with sexism and racism with racism is equivalent to fighting a fire with fuel, but political beliefs state that racism against whites and sexism against males is justified and therefore non-existent, so it gets deployed rampantly. This election is one obvious result.
  - sirtaj 10y ago
    > The racism and sexism are sort of victims of their own overuse. Or possibly there's just a lot of it around.

bzbarsky 10y ago

The problem with this argument as stated is that it has a hard time accounting for the millions of Hispanic voters who voted for Trump... unless you think they are actually self-hating anti-Hispanic racists or something. (Yes, I know more hispanics voted for Clinton than for Trump, but the split was nowhere close to 100-0. It wasn't even close to the 88-12 or so that African-American voters split for Clinton.)

deadringerr 10y ago
The Hispanic population is still overwhelmingly Catholic[0]. There will always be sway when abortion is on the table. [0] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/upshot/even-as-hispanics-lift-catholicism-theyre-leaving-it.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/upshot/even-as-hispanics-l...
- bzbarsky 10y ago
  Sure. And there are other reasons they might have voted for Trump too. I'm just saying that clearly people can vote for him without endorsing his position on some particular issue, even one that cuts very close to them. The parent of my comment was saying that this was abnormal, whereas it is (sadly, perhaps?) quite common in voting.
  - deadringerr 10y ago
    Right, I was supporting your argument by providing one historically consistent potential reason for endorsement from that segment of the population.
- bzbarsky 10y ago
  One other thing: Trump got about the same fraction of the Latino vote as Romney in 2012 and McCain in 2008, to within exit poll survey error. The actual cited number for him is between those for McCain and Romney. See http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/hillary-clinton-wins-latino-vote-but-falls-below-2012-support-for-obama/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/hillary-clin... So apparently he's no more abnormal than McCain and Romney were, to those voters. Or at least they felt their other options this time were a lot worse. Or something. It's hard to draw a hard conclusion from the numbers here.

djrogers 10y ago

Unless we manage to create a parallel universe where the 11-15 million illegal immigrants are Canadian instead of Mexican, to test against, I don't think you can definitively state that support for enforcement of immigration law constitutes racism. I don't think a person who's construction job was taken away by an under-the-table worker really cares what color the other person's skin is, the milk and bread he can't afford now leaves the same hole in his pantry. Same thing for software development offshoring - is it racist for those out-of-work Disney engineers to want their jobs back?

djrogers 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]