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> whole separate ballgame than if This is the game libertarians play with 'Initiation of force'. You're saying that you're allowed to disagree, can negotiate

> whole separate ballgame than if This is the game libertarians play with 'Initiation of force'. You're saying that you're allowed to disagree, can negotiate with an unarmed judge, won't be hurt, etc, but then if you ignore a ruling - boy howdy you initiated violence against the state and they have a right to hurt you. If I'm not free to ignore the outcome of the first issue (speeding, as you say) then the men with guns have metaphorically been there all along. Stop dodging and just admit it - our laws are backed by the threat of lethal force. All of them, from murder down to jaywalking or posting speed-trap data on twitter.

falcolas 10y ago
> If I'm not free to ignore the outcome of the first issue In what society are you free to ignore the penalties for breaking the law without consequence? Saying that the lethal violence is at the forefront of our legal system because you're not free to ignore the law with impunity seems quite disingenuous. I won't disagree that ultimately our laws are backed by the threat of lethal force. All societies have this same reality, though. Even in a pure anarchy, violence is the ultimate deciding factor. Violence is certainly not the first tool of enforcement, however. Most US citizens can speed, or park illegally, or download a movie via BT, all without fear of being killed as an outcome.
- syshum 10y ago
  This is why libertarians only support laws that are DEFENSIVE in nature, i.e law banning Assault, rape, murder, theft, fraud, etc. Outside of these types of laws, enforcement of other laws like Copyright, Drug Possession, etc are unethical initiation of force. Here is a quote from what many consider a foundation book on libertarian legal theory http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G004 http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G004 The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.
  - EdHominem 10y ago
    > libertarians only support laws that are DEFENSIVE in nature This is key for a few reasons. By rephrasing everything from 'X is wrong because ...' to an issue of the right transgressed you're entirely sidestepping the issue of victimless crimes. Second, they're by nature proportional. > only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do Right, a collective is the sum of its members so it has their rights and no more. This firmly roots all power in the individual. It's semantically incorrect to write a libertarian law allowing actions that people themselves don't have the right to perform. Again, sidestepping entirely the tyranny of the majority. It's not perfect, but it's a far better base to start from.

falcolas 10y ago

> If I'm not free to ignore the outcome of the first issue In what society are you free to ignore the penalties for breaking the law without consequence? Saying that the lethal violence is at the forefront of our legal system because you're not free to ignore the law with impunity seems quite disingenuous. I won't disagree that ultimately our laws are backed by the threat of lethal force. All societies have this same reality, though. Even in a pure anarchy, violence is the ultimate deciding factor. Violence is certainly not the first tool of enforcement, however. Most US citizens can speed, or park illegally, or download a movie via BT, all without fear of being killed as an outcome.

syshum 10y ago
This is why libertarians only support laws that are DEFENSIVE in nature, i.e law banning Assault, rape, murder, theft, fraud, etc. Outside of these types of laws, enforcement of other laws like Copyright, Drug Possession, etc are unethical initiation of force. Here is a quote from what many consider a foundation book on libertarian legal theory http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G004 http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G004 The law is the organization of the natural right of lawful defense. It is the substitution of a common force for individual forces. And this common force is to do only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do: to protect persons, liberties, and properties; to maintain the right of each, and to cause justice to reign over us all.
- EdHominem 10y ago
  > libertarians only support laws that are DEFENSIVE in nature This is key for a few reasons. By rephrasing everything from 'X is wrong because ...' to an issue of the right transgressed you're entirely sidestepping the issue of victimless crimes. Second, they're by nature proportional. > only what the individual forces have a natural and lawful right to do Right, a collective is the sum of its members so it has their rights and no more. This firmly roots all power in the individual. It's semantically incorrect to write a libertarian law allowing actions that people themselves don't have the right to perform. Again, sidestepping entirely the tyranny of the majority. It's not perfect, but it's a far better base to start from.