4 ms·

BTW, why lots of people think it's very wrong and immoral to criticize inanimate pieces of technology in rude and offensive language? Political correctness?

by ungzd 10y ago

jrheard 10y ago
There are people on the other end of the screen who built the technology, and they have feelings :) Being nice is good.
- canadaduane 10y ago
  And being polite ("nice") makes it more likely that people who don't yet know each other well will receive mutual advantage through collaboration.
- keithnz 10y ago
  someone posted this to HN the other day https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules .. I thought it was quite good, it means sometimes articles like this, with their emotional language gives you information that is useful... IF you refuse to take offense to it.
adamlett 10y ago
Whenever you feel the urge to use, or see others using the term political correctness, try mentally substituting it with behaving respectfully. The exercise can be enlightening.
- lasfter 10y ago
  That doesn't seem like a useful exercise because political correctness does not always equate to behaving respectfully, even if there is overlap (i.e. most respectful behaviour is politically correct and vice versa). I could just as well suggest you mentally substitute the phrase helping the needy with kicking puppies whenever you encounter it.
  - adamlett 10y ago
    political correctness does not always equate to behaving respectfully Could you provide an example of when it doesn't?
    - pfortuny 10y ago
      "safe spaces" in Universities.
      - adamlett 10y ago
        I see no use of the term political correctness.
    - lasfter 10y ago
      For example, mocking masculinity/men, white people, Conservative people, etc is all "politically correct". I would not call it respectful to call Trump voters deplorables or to belittle issues that men face, but it's certainly not politically incorrect.
      - adamlett 10y ago
        I think I see what you mean, but in my experience, this is not how most people understand or use that term. Wikipedia backs me up on this: The term political correctness (…) in modern usage, is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended primarily not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society.
mfukar 10y ago
Yes. Generally, tone policing in HN gets stronger with the passage of time. Many comments in here complain about the tone without even touching on the point.
- elbear 10y ago
  Here's how I see his point. He came to Elm expecting a Haskell for the web. Elm has the completely opposite philosophy of keeping things simple, even if it means extra boilerplate. I can understand OP's frustration, but if he watched a few of Evan's talks (like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSjbTC-hvqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSjbTC-hvqQ), he would realise his expectations about Elm are wrong. Also, he forgot that Elm (just like any other open source project) doesn't owe him anything. That's why many people take an issue with his tone. In summary, Elm's target audience are JavaScript developers. It's developers who want their apps to be more robust and easier to refactor than in plain JavaScript. Sure, type classes are useful but they also increase complexity. Evan wants to see if there's a better solution and the Elm community generally accepts that.
  - leshow 10y ago
    > He came to Elm expecting a Haskell for the web No, I don't think that's true. He came to Elm hoping there would be some useful ways to create abstractions in the language (that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be typeclasses. in fact, the whole article his him pursuing an alternate method of abstraction), and besides creating a function there really is none in Elm. You must resign yourself to write the same boilerplate over and over. It is impossible to keep any large Elm project DRY.
    - walterstucco 10y ago
      and who cares? fork the project and add the feature yourself. when I buy banana yogurts at the supermarket, I don't write to the yogurt company asking to change the flavour if I don't like it. I just buy a different brand of yogurt. Elm is even free as in free beer and free speech!
lukeasrodgers 10y ago
I can't speak for it being immoral, but basically, using rude and offensive language tends to undermine rational discourse. If your purpose is get at the truth, then it is prudent to avoid such language. However, a lot of writing (academic, journalistic, what have you) has "getting at the truth" as only one of its goals among many, including "expressing my feelings," "attacking someone else," "playing with poetic language," "sounding smart," etc.

BTW, why lots of people think it's very wrong and immoral to criticize inanimate pieces of technology in rude and offensive language? Political correctness?

by ungzd 10y ago

BTW, why lots of people think it's very wrong and immoral to criticize inanimate pieces of technology in rude and offensive language? Political correctness?

jrheard 10y ago

There are people on the other end of the screen who built the technology, and they have feelings :) Being nice is good.

canadaduane 10y ago
And being polite ("nice") makes it more likely that people who don't yet know each other well will receive mutual advantage through collaboration.
keithnz 10y ago
someone posted this to HN the other day https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules .. I thought it was quite good, it means sometimes articles like this, with their emotional language gives you information that is useful... IF you refuse to take offense to it.

adamlett 10y ago

Whenever you feel the urge to use, or see others using the term political correctness, try mentally substituting it with behaving respectfully. The exercise can be enlightening.

lasfter 10y ago
That doesn't seem like a useful exercise because political correctness does not always equate to behaving respectfully, even if there is overlap (i.e. most respectful behaviour is politically correct and vice versa). I could just as well suggest you mentally substitute the phrase helping the needy with kicking puppies whenever you encounter it.
- adamlett 10y ago
  political correctness does not always equate to behaving respectfully Could you provide an example of when it doesn't?
  - pfortuny 10y ago
    "safe spaces" in Universities.
    - adamlett 10y ago
      I see no use of the term political correctness.
  - lasfter 10y ago
    For example, mocking masculinity/men, white people, Conservative people, etc is all "politically correct". I would not call it respectful to call Trump voters deplorables or to belittle issues that men face, but it's certainly not politically incorrect.
    - adamlett 10y ago
      I think I see what you mean, but in my experience, this is not how most people understand or use that term. Wikipedia backs me up on this: The term political correctness (…) in modern usage, is used to describe language, policies, or measures that are intended primarily not to offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society.

mfukar 10y ago

Yes. Generally, tone policing in HN gets stronger with the passage of time. Many comments in here complain about the tone without even touching on the point.

elbear 10y ago
Here's how I see his point. He came to Elm expecting a Haskell for the web. Elm has the completely opposite philosophy of keeping things simple, even if it means extra boilerplate. I can understand OP's frustration, but if he watched a few of Evan's talks (like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSjbTC-hvqQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSjbTC-hvqQ), he would realise his expectations about Elm are wrong. Also, he forgot that Elm (just like any other open source project) doesn't owe him anything. That's why many people take an issue with his tone. In summary, Elm's target audience are JavaScript developers. It's developers who want their apps to be more robust and easier to refactor than in plain JavaScript. Sure, type classes are useful but they also increase complexity. Evan wants to see if there's a better solution and the Elm community generally accepts that.
- leshow 10y ago
  > He came to Elm expecting a Haskell for the web No, I don't think that's true. He came to Elm hoping there would be some useful ways to create abstractions in the language (that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be typeclasses. in fact, the whole article his him pursuing an alternate method of abstraction), and besides creating a function there really is none in Elm. You must resign yourself to write the same boilerplate over and over. It is impossible to keep any large Elm project DRY.
  - walterstucco 10y ago
    and who cares? fork the project and add the feature yourself. when I buy banana yogurts at the supermarket, I don't write to the yogurt company asking to change the flavour if I don't like it. I just buy a different brand of yogurt. Elm is even free as in free beer and free speech!

lukeasrodgers 10y ago

I can't speak for it being immoral, but basically, using rude and offensive language tends to undermine rational discourse. If your purpose is get at the truth, then it is prudent to avoid such language. However, a lot of writing (academic, journalistic, what have you) has "getting at the truth" as only one of its goals among many, including "expressing my feelings," "attacking someone else," "playing with poetic language," "sounding smart," etc.