5 ms·

I think there are many hidden Trump voters. They might never disclose at work or among friends their choice, but I suspected many did. I was watching both the H

by rdtsc 10y ago

I think there are many hidden Trump voters. They might never disclose at work or among friends their choice, but I suspected many did. I was watching both the Hillary and Trump Reddit channels, and on Trumps' channel there was a constant stream of educated people (doctors, programmers, lawyers), a large number of non-whites, LGBT, ex-Bernie people there and so on. On Hillary's side there was a constant -- "Ah look at those stupid sexists, hating us for wanting a a woman President" type of complacency. So the result was surprising, but not too surprising at the same time. > Bernie Sanders could have been in my opinion, easily, the president elect Bernie would have wiped the floor with Trump, no doubt.

orthoganol 10y ago
Yet a significant portion of the hidden Trump voters were more anti-Hillary than happy about Trump. Sam Altman declared support for Hillary because he was anti-Trump; likewise people supported Trump because they were anti-Hillary. I believe if you have no identity politics affiliations, if you read WikiLeaks, it is challenging to keep supporting Hillary, unless you have strong beliefs that Trump is still the worse of the two.
- jessedhillon 10y ago
  I'm curious what you think a Wikileaks voter would've read that would be as damning as you claim.
  - orthoganol 10y ago
    It's a general portrait. I'm speaking as a Bernie supporter. Probably most salient, which I think was Peter Thiel's decisive issue, is her seeming to be pro-war and the enthusiastic support of the arms industry (biggest arms deal in history to Saudi Arabia, exports doubled under tenure, etc.), and probably the worst here was showing how she, even against the wishes of many Obama insiders, pursued regime change in Libya to have an 'accomplishment' to campaign on. Then, it would probably be the connections with corruption, via "pay-to-play" as they referred to it through the Clinton Foundation while SOS (particularly with Gulf States), and, after revelations of DWS's corrupt actions in the DNC, the seeming impunity to promote her. Maybe a final concerning image to a Bernie supporter was her position as a cog among the big banks (most poignant here was Wall Street's list for Obama's cabinet, who in fact came to be the cabinet). Arguably it's more about the DC establishment than HRC, and this characterization of her should be taken to task, but this was, in my opinion, the portrait left by WikiLeaks.
    - jessedhillon 10y ago
      My point is that almost none of those positions are backed up by any Wikileaks evidence. It's just comforting to know that there's a big pile of "something" out there, and in it is probably something that supports what you believe.
      - orthoganol 10y ago
        All of the points I mentioned are backed up by emails from WikiLeaks, directly. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
        jessedhillon 10y ago
        Then surely you wouldn't mind linking me to emails which conclusively show, e.g. some evidence of a pay-to-play scheme involving State, CF and Gulf Arab states.
        orthoganol 10y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4
        jessedhillon 10y ago
        Don't be lazy.
        orthoganol 10y ago
        It's a summary of the emails from the creator of WikiLeaks, if you don't believe him than to you WikiLeaks isn't credible. You're asking me to spend 20-30 minutes retrieving and linking when you are probably the only person who would ever see it. Someone else compiled such a list, please peruse: http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/ http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/ I hope that you are not an American citizen who voted -- you are willfully ignorant, and that is the worst type of voter.
  - coolcat8778 10y ago
    I was a Bernie supporter who switched to Trump after reading Wikileaks stuff. I can summarize really quickly what the problem was, in all the thousands upon thousands of emails that I personally looked at alongside others in dialog online, while combing through them could I could not not find even a single shred of evidence of any discussion about what is best for America. Every discussion of policy in every email was not picking and choosing which positions were the best positions for the country, but which polled the best and basing their platform sporadically on that. A campaign should be ran with a candidate sitting down with their advisers and team, stating plainly what their policy positions, overarching themes, and plans are. Then it is the advisers job to market popular positions to the public, and spin unpopular positions or complex policy to make them more sell-able to the public. That is absolutely not what was going on in these emails, they literally show the campaign making up positions on the fly to fill a near-empty husk containing nothing but globalization. She is the literal definition of everything that is wrong with modern politics. This is not how policy decisions should be created. I don't even actually like Trump. -midwestern rustbelt 'non-bachelors-holding' voter in a state that went red for the first time in years.
    - zzleeper 10y ago
      > Every discussion of policy in every email was not picking and choosing which positions were the best positions for the country, but which polled the best and basing their platform sporadically on that. Agreed. But didn't you knew that already? Didn't everyone knew that? It's naive to think that the reps and Trump don't act this way. He might not have used an army of focus groups, but he knew what people wanted to hear and went for it. I agree with you that Bernie would have been the best for America, but 5-10 years from now the US is going to end up a worst place with Trump than with Clinton, and it's not the rich or the city folks who will suffer more, but the rural voters who will realize that they did had something to lose =/
- tluyben2 10y ago
  That sentiment I understand however voting Trump because you really like the guy and his views is weird imho. Like you I suspect many many votes were just anti Hillary and the hope Trump will just be a marionette.
  - JustSomeNobody 10y ago
    Did these people even consider the third party candidate? Why jump from Hillary to Trump?
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      They didn't want to be spoilers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

by rdtsc 10y ago

orthoganol 10y ago

Yet a significant portion of the hidden Trump voters were more anti-Hillary than happy about Trump. Sam Altman declared support for Hillary because he was anti-Trump; likewise people supported Trump because they were anti-Hillary. I believe if you have no identity politics affiliations, if you read WikiLeaks, it is challenging to keep supporting Hillary, unless you have strong beliefs that Trump is still the worse of the two.

jessedhillon 10y ago
I'm curious what you think a Wikileaks voter would've read that would be as damning as you claim.
- orthoganol 10y ago
  It's a general portrait. I'm speaking as a Bernie supporter. Probably most salient, which I think was Peter Thiel's decisive issue, is her seeming to be pro-war and the enthusiastic support of the arms industry (biggest arms deal in history to Saudi Arabia, exports doubled under tenure, etc.), and probably the worst here was showing how she, even against the wishes of many Obama insiders, pursued regime change in Libya to have an 'accomplishment' to campaign on. Then, it would probably be the connections with corruption, via "pay-to-play" as they referred to it through the Clinton Foundation while SOS (particularly with Gulf States), and, after revelations of DWS's corrupt actions in the DNC, the seeming impunity to promote her. Maybe a final concerning image to a Bernie supporter was her position as a cog among the big banks (most poignant here was Wall Street's list for Obama's cabinet, who in fact came to be the cabinet). Arguably it's more about the DC establishment than HRC, and this characterization of her should be taken to task, but this was, in my opinion, the portrait left by WikiLeaks.
  - jessedhillon 10y ago
    My point is that almost none of those positions are backed up by any Wikileaks evidence. It's just comforting to know that there's a big pile of "something" out there, and in it is probably something that supports what you believe.
    - orthoganol 10y ago
      All of the points I mentioned are backed up by emails from WikiLeaks, directly. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
      - jessedhillon 10y ago
        Then surely you wouldn't mind linking me to emails which conclusively show, e.g. some evidence of a pay-to-play scheme involving State, CF and Gulf Arab states.
        orthoganol 10y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sbT3_9dJY4
        jessedhillon 10y ago
        Don't be lazy.
        orthoganol 10y ago
        It's a summary of the emails from the creator of WikiLeaks, if you don't believe him than to you WikiLeaks isn't credible. You're asking me to spend 20-30 minutes retrieving and linking when you are probably the only person who would ever see it. Someone else compiled such a list, please peruse: http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/ http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com/ I hope that you are not an American citizen who voted -- you are willfully ignorant, and that is the worst type of voter.
- coolcat8778 10y ago
  I was a Bernie supporter who switched to Trump after reading Wikileaks stuff. I can summarize really quickly what the problem was, in all the thousands upon thousands of emails that I personally looked at alongside others in dialog online, while combing through them could I could not not find even a single shred of evidence of any discussion about what is best for America. Every discussion of policy in every email was not picking and choosing which positions were the best positions for the country, but which polled the best and basing their platform sporadically on that. A campaign should be ran with a candidate sitting down with their advisers and team, stating plainly what their policy positions, overarching themes, and plans are. Then it is the advisers job to market popular positions to the public, and spin unpopular positions or complex policy to make them more sell-able to the public. That is absolutely not what was going on in these emails, they literally show the campaign making up positions on the fly to fill a near-empty husk containing nothing but globalization. She is the literal definition of everything that is wrong with modern politics. This is not how policy decisions should be created. I don't even actually like Trump. -midwestern rustbelt 'non-bachelors-holding' voter in a state that went red for the first time in years.
  - zzleeper 10y ago
    > Every discussion of policy in every email was not picking and choosing which positions were the best positions for the country, but which polled the best and basing their platform sporadically on that. Agreed. But didn't you knew that already? Didn't everyone knew that? It's naive to think that the reps and Trump don't act this way. He might not have used an army of focus groups, but he knew what people wanted to hear and went for it. I agree with you that Bernie would have been the best for America, but 5-10 years from now the US is going to end up a worst place with Trump than with Clinton, and it's not the rich or the city folks who will suffer more, but the rural voters who will realize that they did had something to lose =/
tluyben2 10y ago
That sentiment I understand however voting Trump because you really like the guy and his views is weird imho. Like you I suspect many many votes were just anti Hillary and the hope Trump will just be a marionette.
- JustSomeNobody 10y ago
  Did these people even consider the third party candidate? Why jump from Hillary to Trump?
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    They didn't want to be spoilers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect