8 ms·

I've done a fair bit of arguing with the folks here on HN, it's interesting because it doesn't match the echo chamber I have on twitter or facebook. There seem

by ant6n 10y ago

I've done a fair bit of arguing with the folks here on HN, it's interesting because it doesn't match the echo chamber I have on twitter or facebook. There seem to be a lot of Trump supporter here, which I find very surprising. This idea keeps coming up again and again that using the word 'racist' in the context of the Trump campaign is essentially name-calling, an insult. The problem is, racism is a big, big, big issue. And Trump is a racist bigot, you simply cannot deny it. That's why people that are described as 'on the left' feel so strongly about him. It's not 'pulling the race card', it's an actual big problem. America has spent 200 years trying to overcome it, and it's still so far behind. The open racism displayed by Trump is the reason why so many people viscerally hate him. Add to it the sexism (and sexual assault), the bullying, and the xenophobia, and the support for him becomes essentially unfathomable for many who consider his attitudes and behaviors completely incompatible with basic democratic values. The article posted calls it smug, the commuter above called it 'not tolerating dissent'. I would call it a zero tolerance policy on racism, sexism, bullying and xenophobia.

xupybd 10y ago
Do you have any examples of what you call racism from Trump. I haven't been following him super close (not American), but from what I've seen he wants to tighten up immigration. It's my understanding that this is not racism, but protectionism. Here in NZ it's very hard for people to immigrate here (I have had friends have to leave) but we don't associate racism with tight immigration policy.
- ant6n 10y ago
  The Huffpost did a round-up: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-exam... For example there were proposals to not allow Muslims to immigrate to the US. There was calling Mexicans 'criminals' and 'rapists'. Beating of black people at Trump rallies (which he endorsed). This shows up this night on my twitter feed: "I am at a Trump rally in Manhattan, and thousands are chanting 'We hate Muslims, we hate blacks, we want our great country back'. Disgusting" https://twitter.com/SRowntreeNews/status/796141495573155840 https://twitter.com/SRowntreeNews/status/796141495573155840
  - cheald 10y ago
    I'm a little suspicious of that tweet. Seems like that's the sort of thing that would show up on at least one cell phone video somewhere.
  - xupybd 10y ago
    Fair enough if the stuff with Trump Management Corporation and his action at the casino are correct I'd say it's a fair call he's probably a bit racist. Not allowing Muslims in could be seen as racist, but I don't know that was at the core of what he was trying to do. Don't get me wrong I don't think it's a good idea. But 100% of radical Islamic terrorist are Muslim so banning them would have made people less afraid of the radical Islamic threat the media were hyping up as ISIS was taking hold of Iraq. It's dumb and unfairly treats good honest safe people, but racist is a stretch. That tweet holds little water with me each side has been mud slinging, most of the time it's either BS or an exaggeration.
    - foldr 10y ago
      >It's dumb and unfairly treats good honest safe people, but racist is a stretch. That's all racism is. Dumb thoughtless prejudice. It doesn't have horns and a tail.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - BakaRakuda 10y ago
    That twitter thing you just linked, did you read the replies under it? I'm not 100% sure of the context. But it looks like it's fake. @SRowntreeNews @WALTBACON Dude that's a fake account. Don't RT that garbage. @aobrien7 good catch, thanks @SRowntreeNews This is fake, @michaeldweiss. Part of disinfo network spreading false rumors. They were very active during Euro soccer riots. -- If thats case aren't you just perpetuating a narrative about Trump supporters being a bunch of racist bigots, when in this case its made up BS???? This is exactly what pissed off a lot of regular people and got them to the polls IMO.
    - 10y ago
yummyfajitas 10y ago
Using 'racist' in the context of criticizing Republicans is just name-calling. Bush displayed no open racism, bullied no one, and was not xenophobic. Same for Romney. Yet the anti-Trump language is just a more hysterical version of the anti-Bush and anti-Romney language. At some point the term "racist" came to mean "insufficiently left wing". This happened because left wing types called every Republican "raaacciiiiist" - like a bored shepherd boy yelling "wolf" for amusement and likes on social media. How's that working out?
- maxerickson 10y ago
  Trump is looking to get about the same amount of votes as Romney. Clinton is getting a lot less votes than Obama got. So there is an alternative explanation there, that rather than one group of people getting sick of shrill accusations of racism, a different group of people just doesn't like Hilary Clinton all that much.
  - pessimizer 10y ago
    Or that different group of people weren't as afraid of Trump as Clinton needed them to be.
    - maxerickson 10y ago
      A whole coalition of groups with different reasons for not voting for Clinton. I'm just pushing back against the "unprecedented Trump blowout" narrative. So far he's got less popular votes than the loser of the last presidential election (Romney got 60,933,504 votes. Trumps at 59,088,517 with 98% of precincts reporting. He probably won't pick up another 1.8 million votes). A different argument is that Trump attracted new people to the polls. I'd be more inclined to believe that many of those people are sick of establishment politics and their tactics. But I don't think they are actually a majority of Trump's support.
- triplesec 10y ago
  Bush was pretty inclusive racially. McCain too. IDK about Romney, but Mormons have written history and religion that makes him suspect on that, but he campaigned reasonably. Trump campaigned openly on a racist, xenophobic platform. They were key parts of his rhetoric and key to a good proportion of his winning. That is the difference here.
rorykoehler 10y ago
I'm not a Trump supporter... far from it however looking at my HRC social media bubble it's clear that practically 95% of my social circle are way off base when it comes to their analysis of why Trump won, which is precisely why he did win. If you don't understand your 'enemy' you cannot organise against him... or in this case liberals are so out of touch of what life is like in less fortunate areas of the country that they cannot begin to communicate with the people that live there on a level playing field. We needed a more extreme version of Bernie but instead we got offered the status quo. Racism, which has always been a big problem, has very little to do with this election and the sooner we accept that the better for everyone. This is economic.
LanceH 10y ago
And we're right back to smug. You smugly state that it's a zero tolerance policy on racism, when it's going to be the progressive cohort who gets to declare things racist. Specifically, they'll cry racism every time someone disagrees with them. Don't like what the president wants to do? Racist. Have an issue with Mexico? Racist. Mildly suggest that college admissions should have a class based adjustment instead of racial quotas...racist. Or just sit in the wrong place and you get to hear, "all white men are racist." It may guilt some to action, but it makes others disinclined to help. Look at the #blacklivesmatter. Look at all the people who have been railing against police militarization for decades being called racist by the recent arrivals to the issue just because they say there is a larger problem.
DefaultUserHN 10y ago
>And Trump is a racist bigot, you simply cannot deny it. There you go with the name calling again. How about you listen to Trump supporters for once. Or maybe you just don't want to know the real reason why Trump supporters supported Trump. Stop talking and start listening.

by ant6n 10y ago

xupybd 10y ago

Do you have any examples of what you call racism from Trump. I haven't been following him super close (not American), but from what I've seen he wants to tighten up immigration. It's my understanding that this is not racism, but protectionism. Here in NZ it's very hard for people to immigrate here (I have had friends have to leave) but we don't associate racism with tight immigration policy.

ant6n 10y ago
The Huffpost did a round-up: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-exam... For example there were proposals to not allow Muslims to immigrate to the US. There was calling Mexicans 'criminals' and 'rapists'. Beating of black people at Trump rallies (which he endorsed). This shows up this night on my twitter feed: "I am at a Trump rally in Manhattan, and thousands are chanting 'We hate Muslims, we hate blacks, we want our great country back'. Disgusting" https://twitter.com/SRowntreeNews/status/796141495573155840 https://twitter.com/SRowntreeNews/status/796141495573155840
- cheald 10y ago
  I'm a little suspicious of that tweet. Seems like that's the sort of thing that would show up on at least one cell phone video somewhere.
- xupybd 10y ago
  Fair enough if the stuff with Trump Management Corporation and his action at the casino are correct I'd say it's a fair call he's probably a bit racist. Not allowing Muslims in could be seen as racist, but I don't know that was at the core of what he was trying to do. Don't get me wrong I don't think it's a good idea. But 100% of radical Islamic terrorist are Muslim so banning them would have made people less afraid of the radical Islamic threat the media were hyping up as ISIS was taking hold of Iraq. It's dumb and unfairly treats good honest safe people, but racist is a stretch. That tweet holds little water with me each side has been mud slinging, most of the time it's either BS or an exaggeration.
  - foldr 10y ago
    >It's dumb and unfairly treats good honest safe people, but racist is a stretch. That's all racism is. Dumb thoughtless prejudice. It doesn't have horns and a tail.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- BakaRakuda 10y ago
  That twitter thing you just linked, did you read the replies under it? I'm not 100% sure of the context. But it looks like it's fake. @SRowntreeNews @WALTBACON Dude that's a fake account. Don't RT that garbage. @aobrien7 good catch, thanks @SRowntreeNews This is fake, @michaeldweiss. Part of disinfo network spreading false rumors. They were very active during Euro soccer riots. -- If thats case aren't you just perpetuating a narrative about Trump supporters being a bunch of racist bigots, when in this case its made up BS???? This is exactly what pissed off a lot of regular people and got them to the polls IMO.
  - 10y ago

yummyfajitas 10y ago

Using 'racist' in the context of criticizing Republicans is just name-calling. Bush displayed no open racism, bullied no one, and was not xenophobic. Same for Romney. Yet the anti-Trump language is just a more hysterical version of the anti-Bush and anti-Romney language. At some point the term "racist" came to mean "insufficiently left wing". This happened because left wing types called every Republican "raaacciiiiist" - like a bored shepherd boy yelling "wolf" for amusement and likes on social media. How's that working out?

maxerickson 10y ago
Trump is looking to get about the same amount of votes as Romney. Clinton is getting a lot less votes than Obama got. So there is an alternative explanation there, that rather than one group of people getting sick of shrill accusations of racism, a different group of people just doesn't like Hilary Clinton all that much.
- pessimizer 10y ago
  Or that different group of people weren't as afraid of Trump as Clinton needed them to be.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    A whole coalition of groups with different reasons for not voting for Clinton. I'm just pushing back against the "unprecedented Trump blowout" narrative. So far he's got less popular votes than the loser of the last presidential election (Romney got 60,933,504 votes. Trumps at 59,088,517 with 98% of precincts reporting. He probably won't pick up another 1.8 million votes). A different argument is that Trump attracted new people to the polls. I'd be more inclined to believe that many of those people are sick of establishment politics and their tactics. But I don't think they are actually a majority of Trump's support.
triplesec 10y ago
Bush was pretty inclusive racially. McCain too. IDK about Romney, but Mormons have written history and religion that makes him suspect on that, but he campaigned reasonably. Trump campaigned openly on a racist, xenophobic platform. They were key parts of his rhetoric and key to a good proportion of his winning. That is the difference here.

rorykoehler 10y ago

I'm not a Trump supporter... far from it however looking at my HRC social media bubble it's clear that practically 95% of my social circle are way off base when it comes to their analysis of why Trump won, which is precisely why he did win. If you don't understand your 'enemy' you cannot organise against him... or in this case liberals are so out of touch of what life is like in less fortunate areas of the country that they cannot begin to communicate with the people that live there on a level playing field. We needed a more extreme version of Bernie but instead we got offered the status quo. Racism, which has always been a big problem, has very little to do with this election and the sooner we accept that the better for everyone. This is economic.

LanceH 10y ago

And we're right back to smug. You smugly state that it's a zero tolerance policy on racism, when it's going to be the progressive cohort who gets to declare things racist. Specifically, they'll cry racism every time someone disagrees with them. Don't like what the president wants to do? Racist. Have an issue with Mexico? Racist. Mildly suggest that college admissions should have a class based adjustment instead of racial quotas...racist. Or just sit in the wrong place and you get to hear, "all white men are racist." It may guilt some to action, but it makes others disinclined to help. Look at the #blacklivesmatter. Look at all the people who have been railing against police militarization for decades being called racist by the recent arrivals to the issue just because they say there is a larger problem.

DefaultUserHN 10y ago

>And Trump is a racist bigot, you simply cannot deny it. There you go with the name calling again. How about you listen to Trump supporters for once. Or maybe you just don't want to know the real reason why Trump supporters supported Trump. Stop talking and start listening.