5 ms·

This is the issue. People did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism and sexism, they voted Trump despite everyone painting them as racist sexist pigs. The o

by xupybd 10y ago

This is the issue. People did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism and sexism, they voted Trump despite everyone painting them as racist sexist pigs. The other option was so far from what they wanted they had little choice. Please try to understand why people disagree with you, why the majority disagrees with you.

ant6n 10y ago
The problem is, I don't buy it. I don't believe it. I listen to how Trump talks, how Trump supporters talk, all the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, it's just not right. There's no excuse. It's the beginning of fascism. Btw, I'm German. (I've lived in North America for more than ten years)
- xupybd 10y ago
  Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and show me a clear example of Trump actually being racist. I'm a conservative Christian. As a conservative, the left look down on me and assume there is only ignorance fueling my world view. There are issue like abortion, that to me are like the holocaust. I know most don't agree with me on that, and I can understand that they don't see a fetus as a life, I get it. But imagine for a second that you were firmly convinced that a fetus was as much a life as a new born. Things like that will drive you to vote Trump despite hating some of his actions. The left also treats Christians with disdain. You have to get people on side if you want them to vote for you. Not tell them they're idiots. While I don't agree with them some see gun rights as fundamentals to their freedom. You can't just tell these people were going to restrict guns, you have to get them to believe that it's for the best. Not tell them they're idiots. Then call them racist sexist bigots when they don't vote your way. Immigration in the states is not in a good way, having so many people living illegally is not good for anyone. Trump might sound harsh but at least he is willing to tackle the problem (even in a way I'd not go for).
  - ant6n 10y ago
    Well, you say abortion is an issue that feels like a Holocaust to you. To me racism and xenophobia are the the things that fuelled the actual Holocaust. I tried to outline some of the racism inherent to Trump further up. To be honest, I don't understand conservative Christians love for republicans. They preach social darwinism, often they preach fear of others. Is it all based on this notion that "The left also treats Christians with disdain"? My view of Christianity (I come from a more Lutheran view...) is one of 'love thy neighbor' and charity towards the poor as the guiding principles. I consider myself a humanist, but understand that my flavor of Western humanism is essentially the non-secular continuation of Christian values -- which are inherently compatible with leftist values that are also very much based on compassion and empathy. This all seems to be incompatible with the hatefulness I see from republicans, especially somebody like Trump. To me, Trump is a selfish nihilist. One of my favorite Presidents is Jimmy Carter, and his strong moral center based on religious beliefs is the main reason.
    - xupybd 10y ago
      This is one of the things I don't understand about modern politics, morally conservative always seem to go towards extreme capitalism and morally progressives tend to go towards socialism. Personally I'm more middle of the road on socialism VS capitalism. But I tend to vote and align with parties on their moral stance. Even though Trump appears to have a crappy personal Moral standard his policies at least align more with the conservative end. I'd rather a hypocrite that legislates conservatively (Even though that's a really crappy thing to have as the best option). But on the Christian view, there are actually themes in the Bible that talk about a "worker deserving his wage", and "if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat". So I don't know if Christianities version of "Love thy neighbor" is what non Christians think it is. The concept of Love in Christianity doesn't always map to what non Christians see as Love. For example discipline is seen as a form of love. Sometimes doing something that is unpleasant for an individual but helps them in the long run can be seen as love. But to be honest I don't think biblical concepts really align with the left or the right. If I were convinced as you are that Trump wanted to introduce racist policies as president then I'd agree there is no way in good conscience to vote for him. I'm not yet convinced of that and as I'm not American did not bother researching enough to be fully convinced. But then I don't know who I'd have voted for. I'm not a fan of Hillary and then there is the Libertarian and Green candidates, neither really align with my moral views either. It would have been nice if there was a strong moral candidate, but I don't know that either were this election.
- tnmrnis 10y ago
  I also followed the elections very closely and I don't buy the "racism", "sexism" and "xenophobia". I looked up a lot of scandals and looked at the speeches, videos and leaks itself. Often times I didn't consider the outrage as justified. Example 1: Trump never called all mexicans racist, what he said was that a lot of the people crossing the border are criminals while other s are decent. Some of the criminals are racist. Example 2: His "approval" of sexual assault, was nothing but locker room talk. Two guys "out alphaing" each other in a not so nice way. As a conservative from Germany that has been accused of racism for showing support for the shut down of the balcan route I find it much easier to sympathize with the falsely accused then with the accuser. That doesn't mean that I agree with Trump, but I would have voted for Trump over Clinton.
johndoez 10y ago
Precisely. Political Correctness is now starting to work against the Left.
- gcp 10y ago
  Many democracies in Europe have or have had extreme right nationalists/fascists in power and much of the same trajectory happened. Uttering that there might be problems with immigration policies was a complete taboo as the extreme right made extremely strict (and thus different) policies there a major point of their discourse. But what happens when you don't discuss a subject that the voters consider (right or not - that's not even the issue!) important and worrying? It wasn't until the subject was considered debatable by more centrist parties that this rise was halted, or at least coupled with less worrying ideologies.
  - johndoez 10y ago
    Indeed. Here is the great truth - for most people, race matters, and always will. They want to live with people of the same ethnicity, with the same history, in the same territory. The breakup of Yugoslavia suggested ethno-nationalism was on the rise, but the elites continued to push (if not intensified) mass immigration in the West. This has created the seedbed for the new "anti-politics". It is in its first phase, and I expect it to last for around 30 years.
bobwaycott 10y ago
I think you overstate your defense. Some people did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism or sexism. On the other hand, some most certainly did. In my neck of the woods, that some is not an insignificant amount.
- xupybd 10y ago
  Do you really know the motives of your neighbors that well?
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    Yes. I live in a staunchly conservative area, and the people are very vocal here. Here is a campaign sign outside a polling place about 20ish miles away. https://tribwgno.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/white-again.jpg https://tribwgno.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/white-again.jpg Beyond that, anyone who attempts to deny the sexism/misogyny of the Trump campaign and its pull with some of his supporters must have entirely missed all the various materials/items made & sold with hateful messaging about Clinton, using sex-based slurs and insults. The evidence is there and overwhelming. Around here, people are proud to wear those shirts and buttons and affix stickers to their cars with the messages. We will continue seeing them for some time in this area. EDIT: You might be interested in perusing this stream of day 1 after the election: https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656 https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656 Here's a couple particularly notable ones: - Man walks out to his car, on video, to find "fuck you nigger" written on his windows with "Trump" also written on the front & back glass. - Assaults on Muslim women by white people making racist comments and mentioning Trump or wearing Trump campaign gear - A group of whites threatening the life of a black woman at a gas station, with a firearm, while calling her nigger You're left with one of two conclusions to draw: - There are hateful racists and sexists/misogynists out there who supported & are emboldened by Trump's victory - All of these people are making these events up

by xupybd 10y ago

ant6n 10y ago

The problem is, I don't buy it. I don't believe it. I listen to how Trump talks, how Trump supporters talk, all the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, it's just not right. There's no excuse. It's the beginning of fascism. Btw, I'm German. (I've lived in North America for more than ten years)

xupybd 10y ago
Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and show me a clear example of Trump actually being racist. I'm a conservative Christian. As a conservative, the left look down on me and assume there is only ignorance fueling my world view. There are issue like abortion, that to me are like the holocaust. I know most don't agree with me on that, and I can understand that they don't see a fetus as a life, I get it. But imagine for a second that you were firmly convinced that a fetus was as much a life as a new born. Things like that will drive you to vote Trump despite hating some of his actions. The left also treats Christians with disdain. You have to get people on side if you want them to vote for you. Not tell them they're idiots. While I don't agree with them some see gun rights as fundamentals to their freedom. You can't just tell these people were going to restrict guns, you have to get them to believe that it's for the best. Not tell them they're idiots. Then call them racist sexist bigots when they don't vote your way. Immigration in the states is not in a good way, having so many people living illegally is not good for anyone. Trump might sound harsh but at least he is willing to tackle the problem (even in a way I'd not go for).
- ant6n 10y ago
  Well, you say abortion is an issue that feels like a Holocaust to you. To me racism and xenophobia are the the things that fuelled the actual Holocaust. I tried to outline some of the racism inherent to Trump further up. To be honest, I don't understand conservative Christians love for republicans. They preach social darwinism, often they preach fear of others. Is it all based on this notion that "The left also treats Christians with disdain"? My view of Christianity (I come from a more Lutheran view...) is one of 'love thy neighbor' and charity towards the poor as the guiding principles. I consider myself a humanist, but understand that my flavor of Western humanism is essentially the non-secular continuation of Christian values -- which are inherently compatible with leftist values that are also very much based on compassion and empathy. This all seems to be incompatible with the hatefulness I see from republicans, especially somebody like Trump. To me, Trump is a selfish nihilist. One of my favorite Presidents is Jimmy Carter, and his strong moral center based on religious beliefs is the main reason.
  - xupybd 10y ago
    This is one of the things I don't understand about modern politics, morally conservative always seem to go towards extreme capitalism and morally progressives tend to go towards socialism. Personally I'm more middle of the road on socialism VS capitalism. But I tend to vote and align with parties on their moral stance. Even though Trump appears to have a crappy personal Moral standard his policies at least align more with the conservative end. I'd rather a hypocrite that legislates conservatively (Even though that's a really crappy thing to have as the best option). But on the Christian view, there are actually themes in the Bible that talk about a "worker deserving his wage", and "if a man doesn't work he doesn't eat". So I don't know if Christianities version of "Love thy neighbor" is what non Christians think it is. The concept of Love in Christianity doesn't always map to what non Christians see as Love. For example discipline is seen as a form of love. Sometimes doing something that is unpleasant for an individual but helps them in the long run can be seen as love. But to be honest I don't think biblical concepts really align with the left or the right. If I were convinced as you are that Trump wanted to introduce racist policies as president then I'd agree there is no way in good conscience to vote for him. I'm not yet convinced of that and as I'm not American did not bother researching enough to be fully convinced. But then I don't know who I'd have voted for. I'm not a fan of Hillary and then there is the Libertarian and Green candidates, neither really align with my moral views either. It would have been nice if there was a strong moral candidate, but I don't know that either were this election.
tnmrnis 10y ago
I also followed the elections very closely and I don't buy the "racism", "sexism" and "xenophobia". I looked up a lot of scandals and looked at the speeches, videos and leaks itself. Often times I didn't consider the outrage as justified. Example 1: Trump never called all mexicans racist, what he said was that a lot of the people crossing the border are criminals while other s are decent. Some of the criminals are racist. Example 2: His "approval" of sexual assault, was nothing but locker room talk. Two guys "out alphaing" each other in a not so nice way. As a conservative from Germany that has been accused of racism for showing support for the shut down of the balcan route I find it much easier to sympathize with the falsely accused then with the accuser. That doesn't mean that I agree with Trump, but I would have voted for Trump over Clinton.

johndoez 10y ago

Precisely. Political Correctness is now starting to work against the Left.

gcp 10y ago
Many democracies in Europe have or have had extreme right nationalists/fascists in power and much of the same trajectory happened. Uttering that there might be problems with immigration policies was a complete taboo as the extreme right made extremely strict (and thus different) policies there a major point of their discourse. But what happens when you don't discuss a subject that the voters consider (right or not - that's not even the issue!) important and worrying? It wasn't until the subject was considered debatable by more centrist parties that this rise was halted, or at least coupled with less worrying ideologies.
- johndoez 10y ago
  Indeed. Here is the great truth - for most people, race matters, and always will. They want to live with people of the same ethnicity, with the same history, in the same territory. The breakup of Yugoslavia suggested ethno-nationalism was on the rise, but the elites continued to push (if not intensified) mass immigration in the West. This has created the seedbed for the new "anti-politics". It is in its first phase, and I expect it to last for around 30 years.

bobwaycott 10y ago

I think you overstate your defense. Some people did not vote Trump to satisfy hateful racism or sexism. On the other hand, some most certainly did. In my neck of the woods, that some is not an insignificant amount.

xupybd 10y ago
Do you really know the motives of your neighbors that well?
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  Yes. I live in a staunchly conservative area, and the people are very vocal here. Here is a campaign sign outside a polling place about 20ish miles away. https://tribwgno.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/white-again.jpg https://tribwgno.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/white-again.jpg Beyond that, anyone who attempts to deny the sexism/misogyny of the Trump campaign and its pull with some of his supporters must have entirely missed all the various materials/items made & sold with hateful messaging about Clinton, using sex-based slurs and insults. The evidence is there and overwhelming. Around here, people are proud to wear those shirts and buttons and affix stickers to their cars with the messages. We will continue seeing them for some time in this area. EDIT: You might be interested in perusing this stream of day 1 after the election: https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656 https://twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656 Here's a couple particularly notable ones: - Man walks out to his car, on video, to find "fuck you nigger" written on his windows with "Trump" also written on the front & back glass. - Assaults on Muslim women by white people making racist comments and mentioning Trump or wearing Trump campaign gear - A group of whites threatening the life of a black woman at a gas station, with a firearm, while calling her nigger You're left with one of two conclusions to draw: - There are hateful racists and sexists/misogynists out there who supported & are emboldened by Trump's victory - All of these people are making these events up