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Canada seems appealing to Americans until you realize you could be earning more in the U.S. while spending less on a bunch of other things. Don't get me wrong,

• M_Grey 10y ago
  Canada would be an odd choice for many reasons, but is probably attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities. For me, I've been looking at Ireland, Denmark, or the Netherlands for a while, and I'd say they're looking far more attractive today than yesterday. Besides, money isn't everything. There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites, and insane levels of violence too. Not to mention the impact this will have on the SCOTUS, and how incredibly screwed up healthcare is.
  • mahyarm 10y ago
    Thing is you can move to pretty much any western state or large city and not have to deal with most of that. Portland, Seattle, SF, LA, LV, etc.
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  • tuna-piano 10y ago
    If you didn't read the newspaper, how many of the negative things you mentioned would actually impact your life? Would you even know who was president for the last 4 (or the next 4) based on the impacts to your life? I'd guess not. Just live your life and be happy, vote when you can but don't let what you don't control make you sad.
    • enjo 10y ago
      After two or three conservative justices are appointed the court your life will be mega affected. Are you gay? Kiss gay marriage goodbye. Right to privacy ? Gone. Wanna buy or own a sex toy? Those were illegal in many states until a progressive court put an end to it. A conservative court will absolutely reverse that. This is a huge deal.
      • inimino 10y ago
        Gay marriage is here to stay because of a massive shift in public opinion on the issue which has been taking place over decades. None of that is going away.
        • M_Grey 10y ago
          All it will take is a reversion to "let the states decide", which may also be what we see with issues such as abortion. What scares me though, are the decisions like Citizens United, issues with privacy and regulatory oversight, and that kind of thing.
        • mattnewton 10y ago
          I have a hard time believing you after Trump said that he would get someone to repeal Roe V Wade and now he has the house and senate to do it.
          • masonic 10y ago
            Have you read Roe v Wade (or even the Constitution, for that matter) at all? Again, describe the mechanism by which this could happen.
            • mattnewton 10y ago
              Do you really not believe that these people will follow through with their campaign promises when they have the house, senate, and presidency? All it takes is a SCOTUS nominee, a new law defunding planned parenthood and/or banning abortion, and a challenge to the law to get struck down in the Supreme Court, all of which are now in their grasp. I am talking about civil liberties in general. The mechanism for gay marriage would be similar. As a footnote, yes, I have read the decision and I have read my constitution. Furthermore I don't think this is the right place for those kinds of ad-hominem attacks.
  • rayval 10y ago
    Looking at Reykjavik, Taipei, Lisbon, Santiago de Chile and Valencia (Spain). In addition to well-known places like Sydney, Copenhagen, Amsterdam.
    • M_Grey 10y ago
      Copenhagen and Amsterdam are incredible places to live, and Amsterdam in particular has the benefit of a population which overwhelmingly speaks English, and is... a little less depressive than the Danish. That said, god I love Denmark.
    • dragonzooord 10y ago
      Reykjavik is amazing, but I would get depressed by dealing with 21 hours of darkness in the winter.
      • trymas 10y ago
        But 21 hours of light in summer. :) Also northern lights should be spectacular.
        • M_Grey 10y ago
          IIRC it's actually the extended light which drives people to suicide there.
        • viraptor 10y ago
          That does not offset it at all. Unless you've got a ridiculously strong character, or a group of friends that will force you to do something with them, I wouldn't recommend it. Or at least have a backup plan if you start going crazy by November. (Source: own experience)
      • kpatrick 10y ago
        Was in Reykjavik in June one year. It was cold, light and stunk. The cost of food was high.
    • anguswithgusto 10y ago
  • petre 10y ago
    Just forget Europe. It's ridden with socialists and laws slowing business to a halt. Add a failing currency to that cocktail and you have a failing economy. Of the whole of Europe, only Switzerland is somewhat attractive.
    • spiderfarmer 10y ago
      Good luck with being an immigrant in Switzerland.
      • M_Grey 10y ago
        Yeah, I can't think of many places with steeper hurdles to citizenship, although Japan laps them in that race.
        • spiderfarmer 10y ago
          Only if you speak German and are able to deal with their not very welcoming nature, you might stand a chance. I know a couple of expats who had everything in their favor (language, skills, local connections) and after 5-10 years still decided to move to Austria and Germany.
          • M_Grey 10y ago
            That must have been exceedingly difficult, after so much time invested in Switzerland!
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    • kalms 10y ago
      http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2015/12/16/the-best-countries-for-business-2015/#50e6e4957364 http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2015/12/16/the-b...
    • erikbye 10y ago
      More social democrats than socialists, and right wing and conservative opinion is on the rise, have been for a while now.
  • farright 10y ago
    "attractive for the combination of proximity, and cultural/linguistic similarities... There is something to be said for not having to deal with the ... insane levels of violence too." If you just take the above elements of your reasoning, you've just described White flight.
    • KirinDave 10y ago
      I mean, if there was a State in the US where guns were realistically outlawed I'd move there too. Implying that is "white" flight is implying that white people are not major perpetrators of gun violence in America, which simply isn't true. Gun violence in the US is a major problem and our gun ownership and sales policies are at the heart of it. I've considered moving my family away from it long before this horrifying outcome.
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      • wyoh 10y ago
        I'd love if you could back up your "white people are major perpetrators of gun violence in the US". FBI crime stats don't seem to agree with you.
        • KirinDave 10y ago
          In terms of fatality ratios.
      • farright 10y ago
        See https://www.statista.com/chart/3848/the-us-murder-rate-compared-to-other-countries/ https://www.statista.com/chart/3848/the-us-murder-rate-compa... The murder rate for whites in the US (i.e. the rate at which whites are murdered) is 2.5 per 100,000 much lower than the overall murder rate of 5.2 per 100,000. This is still higher than most of the West, e.g. 70% higher than Canada. But not the "extreme levels" you referred to earlier. And you didn't mention guns before, I'm assuming you don't really only care about violence that comes out of the barrel of a gun, and you're just adding this now to avoid discussing the link between race and crime.
  • kalms 10y ago
    My wife is an American and we live together here in Denmark. If you move, please reach out. We'll be glad to welcome you!
    • shostack 10y ago
      Generally speaking how is Denmark for Americans in terms of culture, job opportunities, cost of living, etc.?
      • M_Grey 10y ago
        High cost of living, fantastic culture, job opportunities really depend on you.
      • klausjensen 10y ago
        Pretty good. Lot's of opportunity for an American. Cost of living and taxes are very high, but then there is of course public healthcare, schools and education paid by taxes. If that's OK with you, then go for it.
        • chris_7 10y ago
          For Americans coming from NYC or SF, is the cost of living really that much higher?
          • tom_mellior 10y ago
            Here are some numbers you may or may not choose to trust: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&city1=New+York%2C+NY&country2=Denmark&city2=Copenhagen https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
          • qadevleadgrunt 10y ago
            I can only speak for myself having lived in Copenhagen/Boston/NYC; cost of living is lower in Copenhagen, but so are salaries, expect a huge cut in pay as well as on your ability to live a comfortable life on a tech salary. In NYC I can do a normal sit down lunch at $40 multiple times a week, without really batting an eye - whereas that would be painful in Denmark - on the plus side you usually have catered lunch which quality, choice and taste wise is not nearly as good, but significantly cheaper and with it being better for team work within the company. For health care you should expect longer lines and significant delays in case you have a non-urgent issue; whereas that in NYC is something you can handle easily by setting up an appointment on Zocdoc so that you can see a specialist the next day - with it being covered by your health insurance. On a NYC tech salary I tend to buy gadgets / items as often as I want, if the cost is below maybe $200, in Denmark that threshold is more like $60. Vacation policies are generally substantially better in Denmark; and workload also being significantly lower. Pros and cons
  • dracht 10y ago
    >bitter uneducated whites Why throw in 'whites' like it's some derogatory adjective? Are bitter uneducated blacks or hispanics preferable? Besides that, people without a college degree are not necessarily stupid or not allowed to have a voice.
    • M_Grey 10y ago
      I'm not throwing anything in, I'm just describing the relevant demographic that's been unable to accept that Obama wasn't a "secret muslim" or "not really american" or some similar horseshit.
  • vhab 10y ago
    If you're in tech, Sweden is a more attractive opportunity. It's pretty similar to the Netherlands culture wise, but with a much bigger and faster moving tech scene. That said, any in that line up will be a bit of a culture shock coming from the US. Source: I'm Dutch and moved to Sweden
    • stevekemp 10y ago
      Agreed on the culture-shock. None of it will be too bad, probably, but there are enough little differences that it'll take a while to adjust, and not all people can/will manage it. Source: Scottish, moved to Finland. (Biggest pain-points for me: the Finnish language, and the brutal winters.)
    • ffjffsfr 10y ago
      If I'm programmer/developer looking for job in Sweden where can I find offers? How do you feel about taxes in Sweden? Aren't they very high in nordic countries?
      • Broken_Hippo 10y ago
        I'm in Norway. And yes, taxes are high, but then again, they really aren't. I think when I did the math, the taxes weren't really all that much higher than the taxes + health insurance costs in the states. It feels more like I'm paying a tax instead of outright fees for some things. Some I don't notice as much - such as the 25% VAT, mostly because it is included in the listed price. Cost of living is high here, but Sweden is supposedly cheaper. Enough that there is a bus that goes over the border for Norwegians to shop.
      • lennartblanco 10y ago
        Here is a common job aggregator site for Sweden: https://www.jobbsafari.se/jobb/it/systemutveckling https://www.jobbsafari.se/jobb/it/systemutveckling Most of the ads are in swedish, but google translate does a decent job of translating. Don't be afraid to apply in english, majority of IT companies does not mind hiring english-only speakers. Not sure about the rules on getting a work-visa in Sweden.
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  • copperred 10y ago
    "There is something to be said for not having to deal with the insane evangelicals, bitter uneducated whites..." This is exactly the sentiment that has brought us to this point. Either you are tolerant, inclusive or you are not. Try respecting the thoughts and options of others instead of leveling insults. Equality demands that people that differ from you still get a voice.
  • rmc 10y ago
    Wait till you find out about Ireland's abortion laws! Trump is incredibly liberal on abortion when compared to Ireland's law!
  • jug5 10y ago
    I've lived in all these countries for a several years each, other than the Netherlands. It's straight up comical you think that you could see them as more attractive than Canada. I wish you the best in being a foreigner for the rest of your life.
• Thaxll 10y ago
  You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right?
  • twblalock 10y ago
    > You know that most people don't care about earning SV salary right? This does not apply only to high-income Americans. In fact, the downsides of a reduced salary are much worse for people with average and low incomes. It's become pretty obvious since the 2008 recession that people of low incomes, or even average incomes, have few means to control the circumstances of their lives. They are at the mercy of economic and political forces beyond their control. Another recession would victimize them again, and they would be powerless to improve their circumstances. Americans moving to Canada, whether or not they are high-paid tech workers, will almost certainly take a lower salary in Canada than the one they have in the US, for doing the same job. The safety net in Canada isn't that much better than the one in the US, aside from the obvious exception of free health care. So, a lower salary would be a pretty big sacrifice to make, because it would worsen the problems I mentioned above.
• nikcub 10y ago
  It did happen with Vietnam draft evaders. There is an entire generation of former Americans born in Australia and Canada: like Mel Gibson and Stewart Butterfield of Flickr/Slack. Also with those fleeing communism as refugees or asylum seekers - i'm born to one of those. I don't doubt that some people will move, but it won't be to the extent of previous migrations. You have a better chance of changing and fixing the USA from the inside.
  • caf 10y ago
    Sort of funny, because Australia had its own Vietnam draft.
  • deleted 10y ago
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  • slantyyz 10y ago
    Fun fact: Mel Gibson was born in Peekskill NY.
    • panzagl 10y ago
      His parents tried to find the Burger King from Rt 9, took them 12 years to escape.
• freshflowers 10y ago
  And somehow I have little sympathy for people who want to leave the US for political reasons but have a problem with countries where wealth is distributed more evenly.
• nodesocket 10y ago
  I traveled around Europe and South America for five months recently (digital nomad)... The common question was "...why do you think the US has the technology and opportunities that it does...". My honest answer... Less regulation and an attitude of do what it takes to be successful in the early days. The hustle.
  • nicbou 10y ago
    That sounds a lot like it. It seems impossible to get filthy rich in Canada and even less in Germany where I currently live.
• branchless 10y ago
  To paraphrase: A society with less internal division seems appealing until you realise is has redistributive taxes that give people the chance to say no to explotative wages.
• ap22213 10y ago
  If one believes that parts of the global economy, especially the US and UK ones, are going to tank, does it even matter?
• mhurron 10y ago
  Canada seems appealing to Americans until they show up and realize other than healthcare, it's pretty much exactly the same place. Want it to be like redneck country? Go to Alberta. Want to be like the West coast? Vancouver. Like New York, try New York lite, though Canada calls it Toronto. The following things changed for me going from Canada to the US, there are more American Flags.
  • dblohm7 10y ago
    Albertan here: Your redneck stereotyping is way off.
• FuNe 10y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong but lots of people here seem to think that Europe is some kind of progressive booming social-democratic economy/society with free health/education and all. The trend here IMHO is exactly the same trend that put Trump in office - only in Europe (having some more historic experience with such things) we do things a bit more hardcore. Extreme right wings (fascists) are getting more and more power, nationalistic views abound in all states, welfare state is being dismantled, etc. Our 'Mexicans' equivalent are people fleeing from war zones (Syria, Afganistan, etc) that get dumped in buffer Southern states (mainly Italy/Greece). Economy is in shambles for most countries (add in the terrible lock-ins caused by common currency). Each state is mostly looking after its own interests when there are big issues (war) at EU periphery. ... Do I need to go on? Fleeing USA for EU is like jumping a flaming ship for a ship that is half-sunk. My 2 cents.
• Pigo 10y ago
  I could never move there because the Taco Bell's come with french fries in their combo meals. Nothing I encountered shocked my cultural sensibilities more.
  • Kequc 10y ago
    Yeah we do thing a little bit differently. Respect our culture.
• JulianMorrison 10y ago
  Canada is not about to be run by a bullying sex pest and his running mate, the man who thinks the way to cure gay people is electroshock therapy. There is literally no comparison. Refugees do not care about whether they could earn more.
• segmondy 10y ago
  Life is not all about money, if it was, most people on this site who live in US will be heading to Silicon Valley.
• Kurtz79 10y ago
  I would say that the US is pretty much unique in this respect, and you would experience the same tradeoffs in most (all ?) of Western countries outside of it. Even in countries where gross salaries are comparable, you would pay a ton more taxes. Personally is a tradeoff I'm willing to make, as I believe what is sacrificed in financial terms is returned as increased social peace, but of course it's a matter of preference.
• hiram112 10y ago
  That's very true. Not for any political reasons, but I've always wanted to work in the EU (I lived there several times but was working) but everytime I look at salaries in Berlin or the NL or similar, it occurs to me that'd it be a better idea to just work here and save for a few more years, and then go there without the need to get a job. I'd break even financially and would have more time to learn the language (though I suppose working in a foreign office would be a great way to learn the language, at least once the basics are obtained).
• atomic77 10y ago
  Notably, the Canadians in my various social media feeds were not talking about moving back.
• allengeorge 10y ago
  There are three major things that hinder Canadian startups: - Small internal market - Less risk-taking atmosphere and attitude - Lack of money (see point above) If you're a startup founder and moving its these three points that'll impact you the most. If you're an employee, the significant salary disparity and the number of employment opportunities will be the biggest factor at play. That all said, I loved staying in Toronto, and I met and worked with exceptionally strong engineers there; it's my plan to move back. YMMV depending on the company you join, and one (sad) issue is that the job pool is thinner - so jumping from one great startup to another is dramatically harder than SF.
• eloff 10y ago
  If you're a software engineer working in Canada, you can get a 50% pay bump just by crossing the border. My recommendation is get a remote job for a smaller company that will pay you in US dollars. After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers but without having to pay Silicon Valley living costs or immigrate into a country crazy enough to elect Trump. If you can live away from Vancouver and Toronto you can really make that stretch.
  • santaclaus 10y ago
    > After converting to Canadian dollars you'll be about 30% ahead of your Canadian peers Not for long -- America just out brexited the U.K.
    • eloff 10y ago
      The effect that will have on the Canadian dollar remains to be seen. I don't expect it to strengthen anytime soon. It fell in reaction to the news.
  • eloff 10y ago
    By the way, if you want to be 300% ahead of your peers, get that remote job, sell your house, close your bank accounts in Canada, and seek non-resident status. Travel the world and bank that extra $70000 a year that would have gone to taxes. Ten years doing that and you can probably retire. Speaking as someone who did that, and is amazed that it doesn't occur to more people. It's not for everyone, probably most people can't just up and move, their spouse likely can't get a job elsewhere that easily, and there is the question of what to do for the kid's education. If you're single though, you're crazy to stay.
• xenihn 10y ago
  The situation for devs in Canada is so much worse than in an American tech hub. It's actually pretty ridiculous. Everyone I know in Canada is intent on eventually relocating to NYC/SF/Seattle/LA because the jump in QOL is so huge.