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So, you're saying that capacitors store electrons?! Debunking this particular conception was the whole point of my capacitor article http://amasci.com/emotor/c

by wbeaty 10y ago

So, you're saying that capacitors store electrons?! Debunking this particular conception was the whole point of my capacitor article http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html http://amasci.com/emotor/cap1.html Capacitors "store" electrons, like springs "store" steel, or rubber bands "store" rubber. A charged capacitor has exactly the same number of electrons as an "uncharged" capacitor. When "charging" a capacitor, charge is forced into one terminal, and exactly equal charge comes out of the other terminal. No electrons build up inside, nor are placed into it. They've just been moved around inside, same as the steel spring, or the spherical tank in the water analogy. What then do capacitors store? EXACTLY! That's the questions that students should be asking. They won't think to ask it, if they've been taught that capacitors are like buckets full of electrons. Well, what does a steel spring store? Or a stretched rubber band? KG of steel or rubber? Nope. Capacitors store joules, not coulombs. The above concepts open the way to unifying several ideas: capacitors store charge in the same way that inductors store charge! In both components, energy is stored, as e-fields in the case of capacitors, b-fields in the case of conductors.

CamperBob2 10y ago
Capacitors store joules, not coulombs. Fair enough -- a two-terminal capacitor that stored electrons supplied via one terminal could be charged without drawing any corresponding current at the other, violating Kirchoff. I do like your water-filled sphere analogy, and I agree that the word "charge" is an overloaded term. But what would you say is happening at the top electrode of a Van de Graaff generator? It represents a reservoir of stored (positive) charge. Electrons have been physically moved outside the device, and we use the same language to describe this process -- that of capacitance. I guess the argument would be that the objects in the room constitute the other terminal of the capacitor, with the intervening empty space forming the "dielectric," and that the electrons removed from the sphere aren't associated with the sphere at all, but have just been moved from one region of the dielectric to another?
- wbeaty 10y ago
  Yep, a VDG machine is not a single-ended device. I tell people that there are always two spheres involved, although usually the second sphere is below our feet: planet Earth. Charge conservation says that, with a VDG, the e-field flux extends between the upper metal sphere and the ground below it. So, to concentrate attention on just the charged sphere, while ignoring the oppositely-charged ground surface, is much like concentrating on just one plate of any capacitor. Better: hang many different metal spheres from insulating threads, then use a HV supply to deposit various charges upon them. "Capacitor" is always taken to mean a pair of opposite-charged objects. But miscellaneous "charged objects" aren't necessarily capacitors. Also, this: ENGINEER'S CAPACITOR, not physicists' http://amasci.com/emotor/enCap.html http://amasci.com/emotor/enCap.html While employed at MOS in Boston I temporarily threw together a floating, double-ended VDG with a battery/motor inside one sphere. Like this: http://amasci.com/emotor/vdgdesc.html#diff http://amasci.com/emotor/vdgdesc.html#diff I thought it would much better communicate the true nature of electrostatic generators, but it never ended up in our exhibit. VDGs are just constant-current high-voltage power supplies. A long enough chain of 9V batteries would produce all the same phenomena ...aside from the 10amp short circuit current, and the megawatt arcing! PS, weirdness With VDGs I was triggering three separate kinds of spark. I've not seen this discussed anywhere. We have the usual kind, the thin straight "needle" that jumps between smooth spheres. Then we have the violet fractal tree. Attach a 1cm ball to a VDG sphere and watch in a darkened room. It periodically spits foot-wide lightning networks, just like the miles-wide kind. And third: occasionally I was getting "silent purple sausage" discharge about an inch thick and a couple feet long. In a lighted room they make a slight "thump" sound, so if you hear that noise from a VDG, try observing in total darkness. Sometimes the "sausage" would even produce branching (possibly nanosecond wave effects,) when it would leap out 1ft, then split into five branches from the tip, then proceed to the adjacent metal wall as five fuzzy pathways. Perhaps the particular "seed" at the micro-scale will determine the type of spark which propagates? Or maybe the "sausage" discharge was actually a relativistic effect seeded by MeV cosmic rays.

by wbeaty 10y ago

CamperBob2 10y ago

Capacitors store joules, not coulombs. Fair enough -- a two-terminal capacitor that stored electrons supplied via one terminal could be charged without drawing any corresponding current at the other, violating Kirchoff. I do like your water-filled sphere analogy, and I agree that the word "charge" is an overloaded term. But what would you say is happening at the top electrode of a Van de Graaff generator? It represents a reservoir of stored (positive) charge. Electrons have been physically moved outside the device, and we use the same language to describe this process -- that of capacitance. I guess the argument would be that the objects in the room constitute the other terminal of the capacitor, with the intervening empty space forming the "dielectric," and that the electrons removed from the sphere aren't associated with the sphere at all, but have just been moved from one region of the dielectric to another?

wbeaty 10y ago
Yep, a VDG machine is not a single-ended device. I tell people that there are always two spheres involved, although usually the second sphere is below our feet: planet Earth. Charge conservation says that, with a VDG, the e-field flux extends between the upper metal sphere and the ground below it. So, to concentrate attention on just the charged sphere, while ignoring the oppositely-charged ground surface, is much like concentrating on just one plate of any capacitor. Better: hang many different metal spheres from insulating threads, then use a HV supply to deposit various charges upon them. "Capacitor" is always taken to mean a pair of opposite-charged objects. But miscellaneous "charged objects" aren't necessarily capacitors. Also, this: ENGINEER'S CAPACITOR, not physicists' http://amasci.com/emotor/enCap.html http://amasci.com/emotor/enCap.html While employed at MOS in Boston I temporarily threw together a floating, double-ended VDG with a battery/motor inside one sphere. Like this: http://amasci.com/emotor/vdgdesc.html#diff http://amasci.com/emotor/vdgdesc.html#diff I thought it would much better communicate the true nature of electrostatic generators, but it never ended up in our exhibit. VDGs are just constant-current high-voltage power supplies. A long enough chain of 9V batteries would produce all the same phenomena ...aside from the 10amp short circuit current, and the megawatt arcing! PS, weirdness With VDGs I was triggering three separate kinds of spark. I've not seen this discussed anywhere. We have the usual kind, the thin straight "needle" that jumps between smooth spheres. Then we have the violet fractal tree. Attach a 1cm ball to a VDG sphere and watch in a darkened room. It periodically spits foot-wide lightning networks, just like the miles-wide kind. And third: occasionally I was getting "silent purple sausage" discharge about an inch thick and a couple feet long. In a lighted room they make a slight "thump" sound, so if you hear that noise from a VDG, try observing in total darkness. Sometimes the "sausage" would even produce branching (possibly nanosecond wave effects,) when it would leap out 1ft, then split into five branches from the tip, then proceed to the adjacent metal wall as five fuzzy pathways. Perhaps the particular "seed" at the micro-scale will determine the type of spark which propagates? Or maybe the "sausage" discharge was actually a relativistic effect seeded by MeV cosmic rays.