4 ms·

I'm torn on this. On one hand, Kotlin is great. It's not Scala but it gives you a whole lot while maintaining the ability to very easily swap in for Java. On t

by xiaoma 10y ago

I'm torn on this. On one hand, Kotlin is great. It's not Scala but it gives you a whole lot while maintaining the ability to very easily swap in for Java. On the other hand, it's controlled by Jetbrains—the company that now offers a "yearly license" of many of its compilers at the same price point it once sold them for, after which time they forcibly downgrade the software their users have paid for. It's not illegal and some even agree with the practice on an ethical level, but it's clear that Jetbrains is all about hoarding as much consumer surplus for themselves as they can. If only Kotlin were truly an open project and well supported outside of the Jetbrains marketplace, e.g. by VS Code, I'd be cheering it on. -former webstorm/rubymine customer

mike_hearn 10y ago
I don't really get that. Kotlin is open source. You can write and compile Kotlin code without paying JetBrains a penny, it's not hard. There's even an Eclipse plugin - written by JetBrains. I'm not sure what more is required to make it truly open.
- xiaoma 10y ago
  What non-Jetbrains IDE supports Kotlin well? What % of its contributions come from outside the Jetbrains ecosystem? Once Jetbrains no longer controls Kotlin's future and most Kotlin users are not Jetbrains customers, then I'd consider it truly open.
  - trevor-e 10y ago
    I think you're confusing language openness with freedom of choice for consumption.
    - xiaoma 10y ago
      I think you're confusing deduction with speculation. I'm fully aware of the difference between language openness and "freedom of choice for consumption". I just don't agree with the wisdom in tying my workflow to a company like Jetbrains.
      - claudiug 10y ago
        why? What is wrong with jetbrains, and also what is the connection between then and a free software(kotlin) also, vs code is by microsoft. Any time microsoft can say that plugins needs to be review by them. also vscode is ahead is a very hard option? Are you upset for the election in USA?
  - stepango 10y ago
    https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin/graphs/contributors https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin/graphs/contributors Inside company <30 people working on kotlin that give us more than 100 people outside JetBrains involved in Kotlin development.
alimbada 10y ago
Er, you're eschewing Kotlin despite it's being open source because of your perception that it's controlled by a corporate entity, but in the same post you want it supported in another open source product (VS Code) backed by another corporate entity (Microsoft)?
- xiaoma 10y ago
  >"Er..." VS Code is miles ahead of Jetbrains offerings and has no yearly subscription fee. MS was indeed one of my least favorite companies half a lifetime ago, but they've changed business models and are now pursuing a growth strategy (particularly wrt services) and have abandoned the fight to capture consumer surplus at all costs.
  - my_ghola 10y ago
    IntelliJ Community and Android Studio are both free and gratis software.
    - xiaoma 10y ago
      and painfully slow
      - brianwawok 10y ago
        Your settings must be wrong
  - neeleshs 10y ago
    Care to elaborate how VS Code is miles ahead of Jetbrains offerings?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - leonya2 10y ago
    > VS Code is miles ahead How so? It's very busy adding features JB IDEs had 10 years ago (CSS autocompletion in HTML, wow), it's not aiming to be a lightweight IDE at all, and it's written in JS. It will collapse under its own weight in a couple of years. Sure, today it might be at a stage where they have sort of enough functionality to appear competent while being sort of snappy, but at this rate it's only gonna get worse. It's a new player on a market that doesn't see new players very often, it's interesting to watch, but miles ahead?
lemming 10y ago
You can use Kotlin just fine with the Intellij community edition, which is free, Apache licensed OSS. What more do you want?
aquadrop 10y ago
And I'm happy to pay for their 'yearly license'. Great companies should have great revenues. I don't want them to end up like FoundationDB or RethinkDB. The fact that they get steady revenue ensures me that they won't perish and will keep doing great job.
iamcreasy 10y ago
> after which time they forcibly downgrade the software their users have paid for. What happened? Could you please elaborate?
claudiug 10y ago
scala is controller by a company also. Also, kotlin is open source. the assumption is really bad.
stepango 10y ago
If only you were truly understand what you talking about:) In fact, Intellij platform is open sourced(https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community), many IDE's for different languages built on top of it(like https://intellij-rust.github.io/ https://intellij-rust.github.io/), as well as Kotlin plugin itself. And yeah don't forget Eclipse Kotlin plugin, fully open-sourced) JetBrains open-sourced decades of their hard work, building world's best IDE. And you can benefit from it for free. You don't even have to pay for webstorm/rubymine. Just install plugins you need to Intellij CE)))
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Hackerham 10y ago
I'd better to pay for editor than for compiler/core. Also JB is true software company, its their primary source of revenue. Editors is the only good way of monetization open-source projects. UPD. When I pay for their job, I receive real stuff and not some obfuscated shit. The stuff that will be compiling even when the subscription ends.

by xiaoma 10y ago

mike_hearn 10y ago

I don't really get that. Kotlin is open source. You can write and compile Kotlin code without paying JetBrains a penny, it's not hard. There's even an Eclipse plugin - written by JetBrains. I'm not sure what more is required to make it truly open.

xiaoma 10y ago
What non-Jetbrains IDE supports Kotlin well? What % of its contributions come from outside the Jetbrains ecosystem? Once Jetbrains no longer controls Kotlin's future and most Kotlin users are not Jetbrains customers, then I'd consider it truly open.
- trevor-e 10y ago
  I think you're confusing language openness with freedom of choice for consumption.
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    I think you're confusing deduction with speculation. I'm fully aware of the difference between language openness and "freedom of choice for consumption". I just don't agree with the wisdom in tying my workflow to a company like Jetbrains.
    - claudiug 10y ago
      why? What is wrong with jetbrains, and also what is the connection between then and a free software(kotlin) also, vs code is by microsoft. Any time microsoft can say that plugins needs to be review by them. also vscode is ahead is a very hard option? Are you upset for the election in USA?
- stepango 10y ago
  https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin/graphs/contributors https://github.com/JetBrains/kotlin/graphs/contributors Inside company <30 people working on kotlin that give us more than 100 people outside JetBrains involved in Kotlin development.

alimbada 10y ago

Er, you're eschewing Kotlin despite it's being open source because of your perception that it's controlled by a corporate entity, but in the same post you want it supported in another open source product (VS Code) backed by another corporate entity (Microsoft)?

xiaoma 10y ago
>"Er..." VS Code is miles ahead of Jetbrains offerings and has no yearly subscription fee. MS was indeed one of my least favorite companies half a lifetime ago, but they've changed business models and are now pursuing a growth strategy (particularly wrt services) and have abandoned the fight to capture consumer surplus at all costs.
- my_ghola 10y ago
  IntelliJ Community and Android Studio are both free and gratis software.
  - xiaoma 10y ago
    and painfully slow
    - brianwawok 10y ago
      Your settings must be wrong
- neeleshs 10y ago
  Care to elaborate how VS Code is miles ahead of Jetbrains offerings?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- leonya2 10y ago
  > VS Code is miles ahead How so? It's very busy adding features JB IDEs had 10 years ago (CSS autocompletion in HTML, wow), it's not aiming to be a lightweight IDE at all, and it's written in JS. It will collapse under its own weight in a couple of years. Sure, today it might be at a stage where they have sort of enough functionality to appear competent while being sort of snappy, but at this rate it's only gonna get worse. It's a new player on a market that doesn't see new players very often, it's interesting to watch, but miles ahead?

lemming 10y ago

You can use Kotlin just fine with the Intellij community edition, which is free, Apache licensed OSS. What more do you want?

aquadrop 10y ago

And I'm happy to pay for their 'yearly license'. Great companies should have great revenues. I don't want them to end up like FoundationDB or RethinkDB. The fact that they get steady revenue ensures me that they won't perish and will keep doing great job.

iamcreasy 10y ago

> after which time they forcibly downgrade the software their users have paid for. What happened? Could you please elaborate?

claudiug 10y ago

scala is controller by a company also. Also, kotlin is open source. the assumption is really bad.

stepango 10y ago

If only you were truly understand what you talking about:) In fact, Intellij platform is open sourced(https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community), many IDE's for different languages built on top of it(like https://intellij-rust.github.io/ https://intellij-rust.github.io/), as well as Kotlin plugin itself. And yeah don't forget Eclipse Kotlin plugin, fully open-sourced) JetBrains open-sourced decades of their hard work, building world's best IDE. And you can benefit from it for free. You don't even have to pay for webstorm/rubymine. Just install plugins you need to Intellij CE)))

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Hackerham 10y ago

I'd better to pay for editor than for compiler/core. Also JB is true software company, its their primary source of revenue. Editors is the only good way of monetization open-source projects. UPD. When I pay for their job, I receive real stuff and not some obfuscated shit. The stuff that will be compiling even when the subscription ends.