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Hey it's you! there's quite a bit that has been achieved by successive Indian govts on shoe string budgets. We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs

Hey it's you! there's quite a bit that has been achieved by successive Indian govts on shoe string budgets. We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs and other edu programs, large medical programs, ISRO (and the sensing tech that comes with it). This is from a once impoverished country which later had to deal with the fallout of weaker institutions, brain drain and corruption/dacoity/booth capturing and a whole host of problems that include terrorism and war. Post 1991, once the economy improved there's been significant improvement in out fortunes/tax kitty allowing for many other improvements (not to mention economic freedom). This argument comes up very often, even in other countries and its spurious on the facts (Indian facts above), and on the logic - taxation is not a choice. Don't forget it's a chicken and egg issue as well - without funding you don't get services, which makes you blame the govt and not want to give them more funding.

rm2889 10y ago
Hmm as much as I'd like to agree with you, don't think its necessarily spurious on the facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India From another perspective, the Rs 1000 note was demonetized in 1978 as well to curb unaccounted money. More than 30 years later, we've had to do it again because the underlying problem wasn't solved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_1000-rupee_note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_1000-rupee_note Maybe this time it'll work. Time will tell.
- shripadk 10y ago
  You can't compare 1978 with 2016. Removing 500 and 1000 rupee notes as legal tender in 2016 accounts to more than 80% of total cash circulation. This is huge. 1000 Rupee note was a very small percentage of cash circulation in 1978.
- somethingsright 10y ago
  It will work for the current undeclared income. Soon people will begin hoarding the new currency notes. Or become wise and not stash money in currency. Under the recent tax amnesty scheme if somebody had declared rental income, or business income, they will have to continue declaring it for years to come. I personally believe that the bigger players in undeclared income are not keeping it in cash, they have assets bought in the names of trusted people, be it cars or properties. And that is the difference here. Corruption is big players. Undeclared income was for avoiding taxes by mostly regular people. Corruption had already found a work-around. And even if not, it was free money when they got it; they might not miss it. Regular people were trying to save 30 paise to a rupee that they earned, they will now have to pay it. The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken.
  - wav-part 10y ago
    > The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken. "Black money" term is so misplaced, it should be untaxed ruppes. It wont affect untaxed assets (overeseas and here). And guess who has most untaxed ruppes and who cant afford to lose any more ? Low/Middle Class. Good job Modi. You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office.
    - shashi20008 10y ago
      I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend. > You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office. All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change?
      - wav-part 10y ago
        > I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend. Only if the problem is inadequate tax revenue, which is not the problem IMHO. Its tax spending. > All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change? Not before coming up with better tax spending plan. I have never gotten my taxes worth nor I expect It now, irregardless of how much they take my money.
        legolas2412 10y ago
        Don't justify your skirting the laws. Why don't you spend the tax you don't pay to the government to a charity?
        wav-part 10y ago
wav-part 10y ago
> Don't forget it's a chicken and egg issue as well - without funding you don't get services, which makes you blame the govt and not want to give them more funding. Tell me how the taxes government already has, doing ? > We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs and other edu programs, large medical programs, ISRO (and the sensing tech that comes with it). Correct me If I am wrong, this does not even account for 1% of tax spending. > This is from a once impoverished country which later had to deal with the fallout of weaker institutions, brain drain and corruption/dacoity/booth capturing and a whole host of problems that include terrorism and war. No this is from 60 years governments who still havnt stop exploiting its people. > taxation is not a choice. The issue is not taxation. Its where its being spent. If I had more say, I will gladly pay more. But I hope you understand why I would avoid paying (as much as I can, and ofc legally) taxes if its not even being spent on me. Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes.
- asenna 10y ago
  > this does not even account for 1% of tax spending. Yes, but there are a few other areas that take a major portion of the take spending which we forget to acknowledge in such discussions because it does not affect us muddle-class / affluent people directly - Defense, subsidy of urea and other rural benefits programs (yes, agriculture is in a mess and a lot more can be done but with the introduction of Aadhaar and Jan Dhan, things are looking up) > Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes. Yes the previous government had really fucked up (I tend to think UPA did a decent job in it's first term, it's the second term that they really got greedy and hence their state now), but we should give credit to the Modi government for a lot of the economic reforms of the past couple years. Please note, I'm pretty neutral on politics and do not stick to one or the other camp. This govt. has messed up on a lot of the social issues (Beef bans and communal tensions, JNU student protest situation, Kashmir violence and many more). However, on the economic front, India is really moving in the right direction - Focusing on Startups and business friendly policy changes, making brand India attractive to the world (FDI), passing the GST (massive task and looking to be implemented pretty quickly come April), introduction of UPI [1] (this will definitely move the country forward to a more cashless economy), integration of all the digital services (Aadhaar, Digital Locker, etc), black money declaration schemes and prosecutions (The situation on the ground is actually changing, people are much more scared of hoarding black money now) - These are just some of the things off the top of my head (Credit to both the Govt and the RBI). Don't also forget the aggressive change in stance on how to deal with issues coming from across the border. Again, there's always going to be a million other things that can be done better. But you have to admit this government is doing a much better job than a lot of previous ones [1] https://www.quora.com/How-will-the-UPI-interface-of-NPCI-change-the-payments-landscape-in-India https://www.quora.com/How-will-the-UPI-interface-of-NPCI-cha...

rm2889 10y ago

Hmm as much as I'd like to agree with you, don't think its necessarily spurious on the facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India From another perspective, the Rs 1000 note was demonetized in 1978 as well to curb unaccounted money. More than 30 years later, we've had to do it again because the underlying problem wasn't solved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_1000-rupee_note https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_1000-rupee_note Maybe this time it'll work. Time will tell.

shripadk 10y ago
You can't compare 1978 with 2016. Removing 500 and 1000 rupee notes as legal tender in 2016 accounts to more than 80% of total cash circulation. This is huge. 1000 Rupee note was a very small percentage of cash circulation in 1978.
somethingsright 10y ago
It will work for the current undeclared income. Soon people will begin hoarding the new currency notes. Or become wise and not stash money in currency. Under the recent tax amnesty scheme if somebody had declared rental income, or business income, they will have to continue declaring it for years to come. I personally believe that the bigger players in undeclared income are not keeping it in cash, they have assets bought in the names of trusted people, be it cars or properties. And that is the difference here. Corruption is big players. Undeclared income was for avoiding taxes by mostly regular people. Corruption had already found a work-around. And even if not, it was free money when they got it; they might not miss it. Regular people were trying to save 30 paise to a rupee that they earned, they will now have to pay it. The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken.
- wav-part 10y ago
  > The current method is a way to fight black money. For corruption there are other ways, and maybe some will be taken. "Black money" term is so misplaced, it should be untaxed ruppes. It wont affect untaxed assets (overeseas and here). And guess who has most untaxed ruppes and who cant afford to lose any more ? Low/Middle Class. Good job Modi. You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office.
  - shashi20008 10y ago
    I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend. > You just alienated they very people who voted you in the office. All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change?
    - wav-part 10y ago
      > I too do not think this move alone would solve "Black Money" problem in long term, but it certainly will go a long way in setting a better trend. Only if the problem is inadequate tax revenue, which is not the problem IMHO. Its tax spending. > All govts till now have been doing politically right thing, rather than morally right. If a Govt., for once, tries to go beyond the vote-politics and do what's right, shouldn't that be a welcome change? Not before coming up with better tax spending plan. I have never gotten my taxes worth nor I expect It now, irregardless of how much they take my money.
      - legolas2412 10y ago
        Don't justify your skirting the laws. Why don't you spend the tax you don't pay to the government to a charity?
        wav-part 10y ago

wav-part 10y ago

> Don't forget it's a chicken and egg issue as well - without funding you don't get services, which makes you blame the govt and not want to give them more funding. Tell me how the taxes government already has, doing ? > We've had the green and white revolutions, the IITs and other edu programs, large medical programs, ISRO (and the sensing tech that comes with it). Correct me If I am wrong, this does not even account for 1% of tax spending. > This is from a once impoverished country which later had to deal with the fallout of weaker institutions, brain drain and corruption/dacoity/booth capturing and a whole host of problems that include terrorism and war. No this is from 60 years governments who still havnt stop exploiting its people. > taxation is not a choice. The issue is not taxation. Its where its being spent. If I had more say, I will gladly pay more. But I hope you understand why I would avoid paying (as much as I can, and ofc legally) taxes if its not even being spent on me. Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes.

asenna 10y ago
> this does not even account for 1% of tax spending. Yes, but there are a few other areas that take a major portion of the take spending which we forget to acknowledge in such discussions because it does not affect us muddle-class / affluent people directly - Defense, subsidy of urea and other rural benefits programs (yes, agriculture is in a mess and a lot more can be done but with the introduction of Aadhaar and Jan Dhan, things are looking up) > Indian governments (current & previous) has failed its people and its most undeserving of taxes. Yes the previous government had really fucked up (I tend to think UPA did a decent job in it's first term, it's the second term that they really got greedy and hence their state now), but we should give credit to the Modi government for a lot of the economic reforms of the past couple years. Please note, I'm pretty neutral on politics and do not stick to one or the other camp. This govt. has messed up on a lot of the social issues (Beef bans and communal tensions, JNU student protest situation, Kashmir violence and many more). However, on the economic front, India is really moving in the right direction - Focusing on Startups and business friendly policy changes, making brand India attractive to the world (FDI), passing the GST (massive task and looking to be implemented pretty quickly come April), introduction of UPI [1] (this will definitely move the country forward to a more cashless economy), integration of all the digital services (Aadhaar, Digital Locker, etc), black money declaration schemes and prosecutions (The situation on the ground is actually changing, people are much more scared of hoarding black money now) - These are just some of the things off the top of my head (Credit to both the Govt and the RBI). Don't also forget the aggressive change in stance on how to deal with issues coming from across the border. Again, there's always going to be a million other things that can be done better. But you have to admit this government is doing a much better job than a lot of previous ones [1] https://www.quora.com/How-will-the-UPI-interface-of-NPCI-change-the-payments-landscape-in-India https://www.quora.com/How-will-the-UPI-interface-of-NPCI-cha...