5 ms·

My Windows license doesn't feel "Open by Default", nor SQL Server license audits ... I like the guy, he created Mono, Xamarin, Gtk and co. But only a tiny subse

by aikah 10y ago

My Windows license doesn't feel "Open by Default", nor SQL Server license audits ... I like the guy, he created Mono, Xamarin, Gtk and co. But only a tiny subset of MS products like the .NET ecosystem are open.

adrianlmm 10y ago
Just waith and see.
Aldo_MX 10y ago
My Windows 10 Telemetry settings really look "open by default"...
bobajeff 10y ago
Yes, DirectX is still looks closed to me, along with the NT Kernel and even EdgeHTML.
- Ant5do 10y ago
  Isn't it clear from the article, like everyone else pointed out, that things going forward in Icaza's org are open? As in cloud and developer tools? You're talking about older things.
  - bobajeff 10y ago
    Sorry, I just read the title and commented.
- gigatexal 10y ago
  Edge core got open sourced they even made a fork of nodejs that used it
  - bobajeff 10y ago
    I think you're confusing EdgeHTML with ChakraCore.
    - gigatexal 10y ago
      Yup I did. But I meant chakra. Thanks for clearing that up
  - ahochhaus 10y ago
    MS open sourced ChakraCore (the core of the Chakra JavaScript engine). EdgeHTML is still closed to the best of my knowledge.
wmccullough 10y ago
Obviously they are talking about projects going forward. The article makes that pretty clear. "Microsoft is now open by default and you actually have to make a case on a team/peer review level if you feel something needs to be closed,” said de Icaza." Should they stay guilty forever for the things done in the previous regime?
- irq-1 10y ago
  Will the next versions of Microsofts closed/licensed software be open? Will someone have to make a case that they need to remain closed? Will they release new products that are closed/licensed?
- nogbit 10y ago
  Yes, because their OS is now evergreen, there will never be another "Windows X" and it will be forever closed. If/when they make the OS open (and ideally their other products as well) only then can his statement be taken seriously.
- cryptarch 10y ago
  I assume they'll make all Windows updates open-source from now on then?
- sametmax 10y ago
  First, you have to give very strong evidences that they are not "like the previous regime", or that there is a "previous" at all. All I see right now is PR and strategic moves (let's do what google did, even a bit late). Secondly, given the track record, it is fair that it will take a long time before their past is forgiven. At least the same number of years of doubt that they spent misbehaving. And again that supposes they are not doing it right now. Like patent trolling, or moving software you could buy to a rent-only model, or put spywares in their new OS. I strongly believe MS is not getting better, just getting better at communicating. They are not in a monopoly anymore and they can't get away with a "linux is cancer" like they used to do. The only thing that bother me is that the Gates are getting away with it. They detached them self from MS, and now make heavy communication on their charity, so everybody seems to think they are saints. People have very short memory.
zgramana 10y ago
Miguel is clearly referring to Microsoft developer tools, since he's in the developer tools org.
- maxxxxx 10y ago
  Then they should open source Visual Studio and TFS and make them free. Dealing with those licenses is a major PITA.
  - runjake 10y ago
    Visual Studio basically is free [1]. I imagine we'll see Visual Studio open sourced sooner rather than later, going off the hint-dropping from MSFT engineers. I assume they have some code cleanup, and intellectual property issues to deal with first. 1. https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/community/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/community/
    - maxxxxx 10y ago
      It's not free for companies from a certain size on. I am not even talking about the money but just the effort of tracking licenses.
digi_owl 10y ago
Actually he founded Gnome, GTK already existed (the G coming from GIMP). Frankly the guy seems very similar to Poettering. Stuff he creates, for the most part, only really becomes usable once the leaves the project.
- deckard1 10y ago
  No idea why you're getting downvotes. You're completely right. I was there when GNOME started. Was working heavily with GTK+ and GIMP at the time. Most of GNOME was tossed together haphazardly in a mad dash to catch up with KDE. There were astroturfing campaigns against KDE/Qt, organized on the GIMP IRC servers. The hate on Slashdot towards KDE was crazy, and much of it coming directly from GNOME camp. GNOME 1.x was a total shitshow. The code was horrid, and nothing was stable at all. Luckily their poor standards of code quality never hurt GTK+ much, as the GIMP guys still knew what the hell they were doing.
  - anonbanker 10y ago
    Remember that KDE/Qt were not licensed under anything GPL-compatible at the time, hence the reason GNOME was started in the first place. KDE was indeed much better. GNOME 1.x was awful. I and others like me still used GNOME 1.x, because I wanted a free desktop environment. You weren't the only one on #gimp; don't pretend GIMP had a much better class of developers. Remember GEGL used to refer to hairy parts of the codebase (Genetically-Engineered Goat, Large) that people were afraid of touching.
- anonbanker 10y ago
  your downvotes are alarming. Miguel left GNOME before 2.0 shipped, and started working on Mono full-time. If you've ever used GNOME 1.0, it was barely more than a set of ORB-based applications you stacked on top of Enlightenment DR 0.15 (or Sawmill/Sawfish if you weren't cool/used RedHat after Raster left). The panel was awful, the fonts were awful. Themeing (once they moved to gdkpixbuf rather than imlib) was awful. It didn't even have Human Interface Guidelines until Eugenia Loli-Queru basically forced her opinion on the devs. Sun Microsystems had to dedicate months of programming and useability testing to get the UI to a point that everyone didn't hate it anymore. Once Miguel gave up the reins, others took GNOME where it is today. This is similar to Lennart Poettering, wherein NetworkManager and PulseAudio became much better/more stable/useable when he left.
baldfat 10y ago
"Microsoft is now open by default and you actually have to make a case on a team/peer review level if you feel something needs to be closed,” said de Icaza." The Microsoft bias is to always bash them but give a pass to Apple. I think Microsoft has been the good guy for a bit but they still get hate mainly due to Steve Balmer.

by aikah 10y ago

adrianlmm 10y ago

Just waith and see.

Aldo_MX 10y ago

My Windows 10 Telemetry settings really look "open by default"...

bobajeff 10y ago

Yes, DirectX is still looks closed to me, along with the NT Kernel and even EdgeHTML.

Ant5do 10y ago
Isn't it clear from the article, like everyone else pointed out, that things going forward in Icaza's org are open? As in cloud and developer tools? You're talking about older things.
- bobajeff 10y ago
  Sorry, I just read the title and commented.
gigatexal 10y ago
Edge core got open sourced they even made a fork of nodejs that used it
- bobajeff 10y ago
  I think you're confusing EdgeHTML with ChakraCore.
  - gigatexal 10y ago
    Yup I did. But I meant chakra. Thanks for clearing that up
- ahochhaus 10y ago
  MS open sourced ChakraCore (the core of the Chakra JavaScript engine). EdgeHTML is still closed to the best of my knowledge.

wmccullough 10y ago

Obviously they are talking about projects going forward. The article makes that pretty clear. "Microsoft is now open by default and you actually have to make a case on a team/peer review level if you feel something needs to be closed,” said de Icaza." Should they stay guilty forever for the things done in the previous regime?

irq-1 10y ago
Will the next versions of Microsofts closed/licensed software be open? Will someone have to make a case that they need to remain closed? Will they release new products that are closed/licensed?
nogbit 10y ago
Yes, because their OS is now evergreen, there will never be another "Windows X" and it will be forever closed. If/when they make the OS open (and ideally their other products as well) only then can his statement be taken seriously.
cryptarch 10y ago
I assume they'll make all Windows updates open-source from now on then?
sametmax 10y ago
First, you have to give very strong evidences that they are not "like the previous regime", or that there is a "previous" at all. All I see right now is PR and strategic moves (let's do what google did, even a bit late). Secondly, given the track record, it is fair that it will take a long time before their past is forgiven. At least the same number of years of doubt that they spent misbehaving. And again that supposes they are not doing it right now. Like patent trolling, or moving software you could buy to a rent-only model, or put spywares in their new OS. I strongly believe MS is not getting better, just getting better at communicating. They are not in a monopoly anymore and they can't get away with a "linux is cancer" like they used to do. The only thing that bother me is that the Gates are getting away with it. They detached them self from MS, and now make heavy communication on their charity, so everybody seems to think they are saints. People have very short memory.

zgramana 10y ago

Miguel is clearly referring to Microsoft developer tools, since he's in the developer tools org.

maxxxxx 10y ago
Then they should open source Visual Studio and TFS and make them free. Dealing with those licenses is a major PITA.
- runjake 10y ago
  Visual Studio basically is free [1]. I imagine we'll see Visual Studio open sourced sooner rather than later, going off the hint-dropping from MSFT engineers. I assume they have some code cleanup, and intellectual property issues to deal with first. 1. https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/community/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/community/
  - maxxxxx 10y ago
    It's not free for companies from a certain size on. I am not even talking about the money but just the effort of tracking licenses.

digi_owl 10y ago

Actually he founded Gnome, GTK already existed (the G coming from GIMP). Frankly the guy seems very similar to Poettering. Stuff he creates, for the most part, only really becomes usable once the leaves the project.

deckard1 10y ago
No idea why you're getting downvotes. You're completely right. I was there when GNOME started. Was working heavily with GTK+ and GIMP at the time. Most of GNOME was tossed together haphazardly in a mad dash to catch up with KDE. There were astroturfing campaigns against KDE/Qt, organized on the GIMP IRC servers. The hate on Slashdot towards KDE was crazy, and much of it coming directly from GNOME camp. GNOME 1.x was a total shitshow. The code was horrid, and nothing was stable at all. Luckily their poor standards of code quality never hurt GTK+ much, as the GIMP guys still knew what the hell they were doing.
- anonbanker 10y ago
  Remember that KDE/Qt were not licensed under anything GPL-compatible at the time, hence the reason GNOME was started in the first place. KDE was indeed much better. GNOME 1.x was awful. I and others like me still used GNOME 1.x, because I wanted a free desktop environment. You weren't the only one on #gimp; don't pretend GIMP had a much better class of developers. Remember GEGL used to refer to hairy parts of the codebase (Genetically-Engineered Goat, Large) that people were afraid of touching.
anonbanker 10y ago
your downvotes are alarming. Miguel left GNOME before 2.0 shipped, and started working on Mono full-time. If you've ever used GNOME 1.0, it was barely more than a set of ORB-based applications you stacked on top of Enlightenment DR 0.15 (or Sawmill/Sawfish if you weren't cool/used RedHat after Raster left). The panel was awful, the fonts were awful. Themeing (once they moved to gdkpixbuf rather than imlib) was awful. It didn't even have Human Interface Guidelines until Eugenia Loli-Queru basically forced her opinion on the devs. Sun Microsystems had to dedicate months of programming and useability testing to get the UI to a point that everyone didn't hate it anymore. Once Miguel gave up the reins, others took GNOME where it is today. This is similar to Lennart Poettering, wherein NetworkManager and PulseAudio became much better/more stable/useable when he left.

baldfat 10y ago

"Microsoft is now open by default and you actually have to make a case on a team/peer review level if you feel something needs to be closed,” said de Icaza." The Microsoft bias is to always bash them but give a pass to Apple. I think Microsoft has been the good guy for a bit but they still get hate mainly due to Steve Balmer.