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And as always it will also be a battle for the engineers. I'm German and have only seen a few German companies really fight for engineering power. Only example
by erikb 10y ago
And as always it will also be a battle for the engineers. I'm German and have only seen a few German companies really fight for engineering power. Only example I can think of is Zalando. The reason probably is that the average engineer is better educated than in many other countries, maybe better than in the US. But in exchange we don't have as much exceptional talent. This influences hiring preferences a lot, since a team of (high) average people can outperform a rockstar and can still be cheaper.
But here it doesn't apply, since it's a vastly new technology on all levels of production. You really need the rockstars since they will be the one building the new technologies. So when the big car companies realize what they need to do all the great engineers who can do it will already work for Tesla.
So I have to agree. The battle hasn't really begun yet, but the war already seems over.
- mhd 10y agoThe whole "rock star" notion was/is silly enough in IT, where qualifications differ wildly, and automotive engineering has a much more level playing field.
- bitL 10y agoIt's changing, cars are quickly turning into digital appliances and moreover there is a huge push to "connected services", meaning huge amount of real-time data and ML. I have seen slightly above average engineers landing senior architect roles there just by being close to Big Data/ML, in Germany of course.
- ff10 10y agoThe German car companies already have hired great engineers, but thankfully they couldn't care less about the "rockstar" label. You draw a direct line from software engineering to automobile engineering, without honoring the fact that those two branches are fundamentally different in Germany.
- erikb 10y agoThat automobile engineering is different from software engineering in Germany is kind of agreeing with what I say. That people still think that is one of the major reasons why German car companies will fall behind. And you also agree that a car companies would worry about hiring great car engineers (i.e. the people who build great old-style cars) instead of great software engineers (the people who automate the machines to build the new-style cars). You need to have 50-50 car engineers and software engineers and they need to work together to make that move happen. Do you think a guy with a black Star Wars t-shirt and an Arch Linux running Thinkpad could get any meaningful say in product development at any big German company, car companies and banks especially? If you would answer that with "no" we basically have the same view on how the German industry looks like. What we may not agree on is if that can succeed any longer in the automobile market.
- mioelnir 10y agoYou have very, very obviously never been inside a german car factory.
- lispm 10y agoWait, wasn't Tesla just telling that they are buying a small GERMAN company to get factory automation knowledge? I read that somewhere...
- erikb 10y agoWhat is the point you trying to make? Yes they are buying the smart engineers and somehow a lot of German car companies didn't buy them first. Pretty much the problem as described above.
- lispm 10y agoThe point is: the German factory automation business already exists and is huge. Germany already sells this world-wide. Tesla just bought a tiny share into it. Industry 4.0 - Germany's 4th industrial revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y990kaGbJD0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y990kaGbJD0 Industry 4.0 in the Volkswagen Group https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTl8w6yAjds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTl8w6yAjds "Industrie 4.0" - Bosch plant in Blaichach, Germany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKhSTjraHlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKhSTjraHlU CAR FACTORY: Mercedes-Benz Industrie 4.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXRTKy_TrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdXRTKy_TrM German car companies and their suppliers (Continental, Bosch, ...) have already lots of smart engineers in this domain. Their current factories are among the highest automated in the world. Volkswagen invested $15.3 billion in R&D last year, Daimler $7.6 billion, BMW $5.5 billion. Number one, three and seven in the automotive world. Tesla was spending $0.7 billion for R&D in 2015.
- bitL 10y agoHint: do Big Data & ML and let BMW, Audi and M-B fight each other to get you. 140k/year base. Externally BMW will tell you that not even managers have 80k but that's just public BS. They are pretty much in a war for talent.
- erikb 10y agoThis is an assumption from what would be logical or real life hiring experience? I would agree with the logical foundation, but none of the big data & ml people I know work at a car company. As I said I only remember Zalando being active on the hiring front, and they don't do cars (yet).
- bitL 10y agoMagic word is "connected services" if you want to earn big bucks in automotive working on ML/Big Data. It's a real life experience, basically in the past year all big German car manufacturers are hiring like crazy in these fields.
- Matthias247 10y agoMaybe in the US. In germany that's a senior manager salary. Independent of how good you are as a SW developer (or data scientist, ...) you will always get a normal engineer ("Sachbearbeiter") salary, which is pretty much regulated through IG Metall. And that maxes out at about 100k€ (which you will have more chances to get when you are decades of years in the company than when you are new but have a great knowledge). Source: Have worked long enough for one of those companies. And always wished salaries would have been more skill/talent based.
- Matthias247 10y agoC'mon, I would appreciate comments or discussions, ideally about real life (personal) experiences instead of downvotes. What I tried to give here was also only my personal experience (and what I know from lots of friends also working in the industry).
- bitL 10y ago
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]