15 ms·

Formation of Tesla Advanced Automation Germany

• sho_hn 10y ago
  "Real men own fabs."
  • AKifer 10y ago
    very well said
    • sho_hn 10y ago
      The "real men" part is a bit distasteful by modern decency standards, but that's the quotation. I read it more as saying something about businesses that make physical tangibles under their own steam.
      • blahi 10y ago
        Do you mean it's not politically correct?
        • sho_hn 10y ago
          I think it speaks to a vision of masculinity I can't really relate to, and think many around me would agree. (Man, this is the first time I've seen downvotes on HN - interesting that this is such a sore thing.)
          • deleted 10y ago
            [deleted]
          • sten 10y ago
            I can appreciate the sentiment. Though in this context I'd consider it to almost be a satire. ie. Real men don't think about the kinds of things that other people who say "real men __" because they're busy building things.
          • marktangotango 10y ago
            Didn't down vote, but the quote is clearly that, a quote, discussing it in identity terms is jaring, out of context, off topic, and not charitable to the op, imo.
            • sho_hn 10y ago
              Fair. I guess I felt uncomfortable enough that I wanted to disassociate myself from it, but I suppose I should trust the HN audience there.
          • deleted 10y ago
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          • caminante 10y ago
            > Man, this is the first time I've seen downvotes on HN In the context, your "Man" is ironic.
      • icegreentea 10y ago
        You can interpret that statement in any number of ways. That quote originated no later than 1994. The semi-conductor industry then was certainly dominated by men. In that sense, the use of the male gender is surely just a byproduct of its environment - if nearly everyone you work with and compete against is a bunch of dudes, you'd surely end up using masculine pronouns all the time. Another interesting thing is the entanglement of male personal identity with the corporation. Because men don't actually own fabs - corporations own fabs. Economic/legal entities designed to exploit human labour and creativity own fabs. The very people muttering these statements about real men are doing so while embedding themselves into a matrix of control. And another way to interpret this - even if a positive vision of masculinity merely includes sufficient self dependence and a capability to provide for others - ie to be free, then this statement is blatantly true. The statement is that people who are truly able to be free are those who own the methods of production - something which the vast majority of men (or people really) in our world do not.
        • ghaff 10y ago
          The origin (AFAIK) is actually about ten years older than that. In 1982, there was a short satirical humor book published called "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" [1] that generated what we would now call a "meme" in that vein. I think a number of folks here are taking the fab comment in a far more serious vein than I'm sure it was intended. (A 1994 audience would mostly be quite familiar with the reference.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_Don%27t_Eat_Quiche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Men_Don%27t_Eat_Quiche
      • ldev 10y ago
        need to consult Code of Conduct on that one
  • tormeh 10y ago
    Context: Said by some AMD exec a year before they sold their fabs to GloFo.
    • sho_hn 10y ago
      GloFo was a spinout though, right?
      • tormeh 10y ago
        True.
    • deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
• sidcool 10y ago
  This is great news. Never ever before was I so interested in manufacturing operations and logistics.
  • edpichler 10y ago
    Same as me, transportation and energy are really big problems today.
• ptbello 10y ago
  Let the poaching begin. BMW, Porsche and friends will better come up with solid retainers, lest lose their top talent.
  • lmedinas 10y ago
    They already have problems getting and retaining talent.
    • doczoidberg 10y ago
      don't forget that there are strong cooperations and they know their talents better than outsiders. They know who is how much worth.
      • ptbello 10y ago
        true, but this kind of information will eventually leak; job title and basic insider knowledge can take you quite far already
      • Matthias247 10y ago
        Not really. In the german automotive industry there are no real exceptional salaries for engineers, it's pretty much regulated through IG Metall and everybody is earning the same in a +-15% range. That means these companies typically don't offer engineers awesome salaries in order to retain them, doesn't matter how good they are at their stuff. The only exception is (non-technical) management.
• Ericson2314 10y ago
  If only programmers would invest as much in their own productivity... :/
  • kctess5 10y ago
    As to... buy a German engineering company?
    • Ericson2314 10y ago
      Mainstream programming languages and developer tools are a joke.
• conflagration 10y ago
  This just made my jaw literally drop. Not only is Prüm my former hometown (of roughly 5000 people), but I actually worked at Grohmann at holidays and as a part-timer during my school and student days. This place is filled with prototypical German engineers (in the good sense) and the company was always in growth-mode. I think this might be a very good acquisition for Tesla.
  • TulliusCicero 10y ago
    That seems like an awfully small town for what Tesla wants to use it for. Won't they have trouble with recruiting?
    • masklinn 10y ago
      > That seems like an awfully small town for what Tesla wants to use it for. They're buying an existing company which is HQ'd there. > Won't they have trouble with recruiting? Why would they? People can easily move around.
      • TulliusCicero 10y ago
        > They're buying an existing company which is HQ'd there. I understand that, but it sounds like they are also planning to try and add a lot of people in the future. > Why would they? People can easily move around. Perhaps in Germany the attitudes are different (I recently moved here so maybe I'll find out!), but in the US you'd have an extremely hard time recruiting talented engineers to a city of just 5,000 people. Most educated people in the states want the amenities of a larger city.
        • pluma 10y ago
          The difference probably is that the scales are different in Germany. The largest city in the general area is Cologne with 1 million residents. There are a lot more much smaller towns in between and it's perfectly normal to drive from one town to another for shopping and services because the towns tend to be very close to each other. You don't generally get these vast empty stretches of land between places in Germany, especially not in the West (the most densely populated region of Germany). But you also don't get American megacities like NYC, SF or LA.
• raverbashing 10y ago
  I suspect there will be some amount of culture clashing over such acquisitions (Not as bad as the Japanese company that bought a French robot company I'm sure)
  • pluma 10y ago
    If what I hear about working with American customers from people working in manufacturing is any indicator, you might be right. But it shouldn't be much of a problem for the product. For context: anecdotally American customers tend to overspecify their requirements with unrealistic and irrelevant details and then fail to follow the same requirements on their end. Not much of a problem for German manufacturers but certainly a bit of a culture clash initially. I bet Americans have similar stories faulting the Germans in turn though.
• shade23 10y ago
  This move gives them access to much more than just Grohmann. - The infrastructure available in Europe and Germany is tailored towards automobile manufacturing [1] -They have moved to the home turf of few of biggest automobile manufacturers . -The amount of talent available to poach would increase too. I wonder how all the other German Automobile manufacturers look at this move. [1]:https://www.ixpos.de/IXPOS/Content/EN/Your-business-in-germany/_SharedDocs/Downloads/automotive-industry-in-germany.pdf?v=6 https://www.ixpos.de/IXPOS/Content/EN/Your-business-in-germa...
  • lispm 10y ago
    > I wonder how all the other German Automobile manufacturers look at this move. Tesla is buying a relatively small company with just 700 people. That's a drop in the ocean of automotive/manufacturing employees in Germany. The car companies have >750k employees and the suppliers another 300k employees.
• radva42 10y ago
  I am not very surprised by this news: german companies are very, very strong in this field. I worked a few years in a german research facility for production technology and automation a few years ago and the stuff we were working on was impressive ... to say the least. Very smart people and a lot a discipline => it's obviously paying off.
  • ff10 10y ago
    Then again, there's a general sentiment [here] that German carmakers will go under facing the Tesla threat. The RDF is strong with Tesla. That's from someone who's considering buying a Model 3 next year.
    • te_chris 10y ago
      General sentiment they'll go under? Come again?
      • ff10 10y ago
        I forgot to refer to what a lot of people in this thread are writing.
• flexie 10y ago
  Not only has Tesla created the greatest external challenge to the German auto industry that I can think of. They also have the nerve to attack them in their own backyard where they can take advantage of German suppliers etc. What will be next? A Gigafactory in Europe? This is great news for people who like tech but must be worrying for the German automakers who have yet to come up with a trustworthy answer to Tesla. I believe one of VW, Mercedes Benz and BMW will bankrupt in 5-10 years. None of them have taken EV serious yet and I fear it's soon too late. The EVs that they have come up with as answers to Tesla are almost cartoonish like vehicles. Take a look at this Mercedes EQ: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/29/mercedes-benz-generation-eq-concept-paris-official/ http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/29/mercedes-benz-generation-... Or this VW I.D.: https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/28/meet-the-i-d-volkswagens-first-purely-electric-car-on-track-for-2020/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/28/meet-the-i-d-volkswagens-f... Same blue lights. I bet they will come with a space suit and a laser gun as well. Both are still concept cars but they represent what they expect their EVs should look like. Mind you that this is something they plan to market in 2020 so it will probably be 2021 or later. And their planned 2020 EVs are inferior to Tesla model S, X and 3 in 2016/2017 in many ways, not just design wise. It is as though they think only hipsters will drive EVs in any foreseeable future. So when in 2021 they realise that they underestimated that ordinary people want an EV that looks no more spacey than a combustion engine car, but comes with wireless upgrades, long range batteries, large trunk, fast acceleration, high safety rating etc., they will have to wait another 3-4 years until they have a real answer ready. By then, model 3 has been on the market for close to a decade and even better Tesla models with better range, faster charging etc. have been introduced. And the Tesla cars will have been trained with tens of billions of miles of self driving by then. How are the Germans going to catch up?
  • draggnar 10y ago
    I disagree, what they've done is externalized many of the risks (battery fires, unforeseen supplier bottlenecks, etc) and maintained focus on building cars that people want right now. They haven't been able to keep Tesla from entering the market and becoming a competitor. Perhaps the next disruptive innovation in transportation will prove to actually be disruptive but so far EVs haven't. Most people don't up and buy the newest car as soon as it comes out, so 3 to 4 years might not be as damaging as all the risks could have been.
• caminante 10y ago
  Grohmann makes plants for automated manufacturing and had FY15 revenues of 115M EUR. Am I insufficiently caffeinated to see this as a big deal?
  • dave1619 10y ago
    Can you share link to their revenues?
• tobltobs 10y ago
  Tesla and the coming EV wave will be a Tsunami for Europe. I don't see how the European car industry will be able to manage this change. There are too many investments and interests bound into combustion engines.
  • lttlrck 10y ago
    The same argument could apply to the US, even more so... the tsunami seems to be more of a squall. The big manufacturers are adapting just fine at, seemingly, their own pace.
    • tobltobs 10y ago
      > The same argument could apply to the US No, the turnover generated by the automotive sector represents 6.5% of EU GDP, in Germany it is 20%. In the US it is about 3%. > The big manufacturers are adapting just fine Any examples for that?
      • jast 10y ago
        http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/09/13/chevrolet-bolt-tesla-model-3-miles-per-charge-range/90275486/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/09/13/chevrole... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gm-bolt-idUSKBN1300PM http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gm-bolt-idUSKBN1300PM http://nseavoice.com/cars/can-tesla-model-3-keep-up-with-chevy-bolt-920018170.html http://nseavoice.com/cars/can-tesla-model-3-keep-up-with-che...
      • lispm 10y ago
        The German car manufacturers have a GDP share of 400 billion, out of a German GDP of 3 trillion Euros.
        • tobltobs 10y ago
          automotive sector > car manufacturers
• BenoitEssiambre 10y ago
  "As the machine that builds the machine, our factories are so important that we believe they will ultimately deserve an order of magnitude more attention in engineering than what they produce." They shouldn't stop there. Any good software engineer knows that even more attention should be paid to the abstract factory factories.
  • deleted 10y ago
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• deleted 10y ago
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• andrewclunn 10y ago
  Worried that the EU is going to use regulatory measures to advantage their home grown producers? Just make sure you provide some jobs and move part of your business there. Or perhaps I'm just too cynical.
  • tormeh 10y ago
    There is some evidence for this, but honestly the US does the same, usually worse. Better not speak of China, where this is official policy.
• rattray 10y ago
  For those curious about Grohmann the company: > Grohmann Engineering GmbH develops, supplies, and services production systems. Its products include assembly systems, placement machines, singulation machines, laser and bonding systems, test and thermal systems, liquid dispensing systems, product handling and tape application systems, flexfoil process equipment, fiber laying and coating systems, automated fiber-end finishing systems, terminal assembly systems, bonding and micro-molding systems, in-line assembly and molding systems, sealers, and machine platforms. The company serves automotive, telecommunications, consumer electronics, and biotechnical industries. Grohmann Engineering GmbH is based in Prüm, Germany. It has service and support centers in the Northern United States, Canada, China, Costa Rica, the Philippines, South Korea, Taiwan, the United Kingdom/Ireland, South America, Australia, Scandinavia, Malaysia, and South Africa. from http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=25937502 http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.as... The company website is http://www.grohmann-engineering.de/ http://www.grohmann-engineering.de/
• jlj 10y ago
  Here's an analysis on the impacts that reduced car ownership and increased EV market share will have on the transportation and energy industries. If this comes true, Tesla, Uber, ReachNow, and company may do for those industries what Amazon did (and is doing) for publishing and retail. http://markmancapital.net/blog/2016/10/27/auto-industry-faces-existential-challenge http://markmancapital.net/blog/2016/10/27/auto-industry-face... "Morgan Stanley analysts think autonomy is the tipping point. “We believe shared and autonomous cars can deflate the cost per mile to as little as 20 cents, triggering a doubling of global miles travelled by 2030,” Jonas says. At that cost, it no longer makes sense for consumers to buy vehicles. So, auto dealerships no longer make economic sense. The business-to-consumer auto insurance model collapses, given diminished risk. Ride-hailing, especially for groups, becomes cost competitive with short, regional air travel. Skippingthe TSA lines is an added bonus. Public parking spaces become mostly obsolete, yielding huge swaths of valuable urban real estate. And the economics of electric vehicles for fleets hastens the migration away from fossil fuels, leading to an energy glut and more heavily taxed electricity infrastructure."